Reevaluation 1: Eder Jofre

Maybe he isn't.
But how many fighters throughout history could claim both a 2 traditional weightclasses titles and never being stopped ?
Not that I consider the tradiional anymore than the untraditional but it is a wider range of weights and that counts more.
Also he was his grandaddy's daddy , and much more clearly than how his daddy (doubtful) was his daddy. It is at least the reason to why he should be clearly ranked higher than Harada .
Not to mention he was significantly older than Harada .

 

I actually think Jofre's bantamweight resume is pretty solid, for the most part.

Before he won the NBA title, he had already scored...

* Two victories over Ernesto Miranda (and had also drawn twice with him in the embryonic stages of his career)
* A stoppage of then-viable Rueben Caceres to avenge another early draw.
* A victory over a dependable contender in Leo Espinosa
* An up from the floor stoppage of an undefeated Jose Smecca
* A stoppage of a tough, veteran contender in Roberto Castro
* A kayo of the aforementioned Jose Medel in an eliminator.

So, it's not like he was bowling over stiffs on his way up.

Now, onto the title fights.

* Eloy Sanchez, split a couple of fights with Medel, and was coming off a career best victory over Jose Becarra, convincing the reigning champ to retire. Inconsistent, to be certain, but very definitely a contender at the weight.
* Pierro Rollo was at the very least a European Champion, and a ranked contender. Also had a nice victory over former world champ D'agata to establish himself as a legit contender.
* Ramon Arias had already gone the distance against Perez in a flyweight title fight, and was on a nice little run going into his fight with Jofre. Plus this fight was held in Arias' back-yard.
* Johnny Caldwell was the undefeated world champion, with two victories over former champ Alphonse Halimi. And he wasn't the same fighter following his unification fight with Jofre
* Medel was certainly a solid contender at the weight, and was beaten more quickly in the rematch.
* Marques didn't have the best record, but he'd already fought two eliminators to get the shot at Jofre. So he had earned his chance.
* Aoki was 33-1-1 going into the Jofre fight, and was on a 17 fight win streak that included a two round kayo over mainstay contender Leo Espinosa. The fight was in Japan...And Jofre blew him out.
* Jamito was a decent enough contender with a good record, who had never been stopped. Again, Jofre was fighting in hostile territory, and won by kayo.
* Caraballo was 39-0-1, with victories over the likes of Pasqual Perez, Rollo, flyweight champ Chatchai Chianoi, and Ramon Arias, among others. He was considered to be the heir apparent to Jofre, and continued to remain viable for a while after his fight with Eder. But Jofre went hostile territory, again, and stopped him.

That's a hell of a run. The people listed were all good quality contenders, and Jofre beat him all. Yeah, he lost to Harada, but jeez...he was fighting a former flyweight champ who went on to carve out a damned good reign as 118lb champ in his own right.

Tough not to rank him among the very best bantamweights of all time, given all this work.

 

Great post Drew !

 

Casamayor122:

Miranda was ranked in the top 10 BW at the time.........
Piero Rollo, Manny Elias, Caraballo, Marques, Caldwell, Aoki, Medel, etc...all ranked, top 10 fighters at the time.......

Again, what could Eder have done to prove his greatness if what he did wasn´t enough for you ? Maybe a win over Harada, okay....like The GreatA said, he took on anybody the division could offer at the time....his consistency was very good !!

he beat quite a respectable list of ranked contenders throughout his era !! Not so great as Joe Louis for example, but it´s my comparison.......

Would you say Carlos Ortiz´s lightweight resume was greater than Duran´s Lw resume ? Ortiz beat Elorde, Kenny Lane, Brown, Laguna, Sugar Ramos, etc, more than once.....Duran beat, Buchanan, DeJesus, Fernandez, etc....guys who wasn´t better than Ortiz opposition.....(in my opinion)

Bit of a weird example, but I think you understand my point.....

My opinion....

 

PS- Sorry if there is english mistakes in my post.....

 

If you're going strictly by the numbers, then some of these fighters aren't impressive. But...Let's look a bit deeper.

* Prior to facing Jofre for a second time, Cacares had faced Kid Pasqualito (a solid fringe contender who had a near prime Ruben Olivares on the floor), and drawn him twice. His only loss before the rematch was to Alvarez (who scored some nice victories during the course of his career).

Yeah, he hit the wall hard, and disappeared...But he had stayed with some decent opponents prior to meeting Jofre for the second time. Was he amazing? Probably not. But he's probably a little better, at his best, then his 14-14 record suggests.

* Yeah, Miranda lost 34 times by the time all was said and done. He also won 99 times. As Vic said, he was in the Top 10, and on a lengthy undefeated streak going into his third and fourth fights with Jofre. Good wins for a fighter coming up.

* Smecca wound up 42-12-9, with victories over guys who did have respectable records when they fought. In a region that was producing a bunch of good bantams, he was certainly one of them.

* Sure there was padding on Castro's record. But, he did beat guys with better records than the ones you mentioned (e.g. Arturo Rojas was 24-1-2, Pedro Miranda 21-0). Again, another decent scalp for a fighter coming up.

* Espinosa lost to fighters, but beat some good names, too and was a one time challenger at flyweight. Was ranked Top 10 when Jofre beat him.

And as for the title challengers...

* No one said Sanchez was great, but he was certainly a good fighter, who was capable of beating world class opposition. Becarra was maybe on the slide, but was still champion when Sanchez beat him. He was highly ranked when Jofre beat him.

* Marques? See Sanchez. Was ranked Top 10 at the weight, and again, got the shot by winning two eliminators. Would you rather have seen Jofre duck him? Just saying...

* Aoki's record may have had padding, but you know...There were some decent fighters thrown in there, like Rollo and Espinosa (admittedly sliding at the time, but still dangerous at the regional level).

* We've already established that Caraballo, Rollo, and Medel are decent wins.

* Caldwell was at any rate, an undefeated, and highly ranked opponent before he met Jofre. Plus he had two victories, as already stated over Halimi. Another decent win.

****

Basically, we can go back and forth all year about just how good these guys were. But the fact remains is that most of the people that I've listed likely would have been good enough to upend Jofre if he hadn't have been the goods. In an era where everyone at bantamweight was fighting everyone else, scoring victories over one another, Eder emerged as the one fighter who was eventually able to find a way to beat everybody he faced, without sustaining a single loss until Harada turned the trick in '65.

That's what makes him one of the best bantamweights who ever lived.

When you combine that with the fact that, when he was past prime, he was still scoring victores over dependable fringe contenders like Fukuyama, Stevens, Octavio Gomez, Juan Antonio Lopez, and scoring an admittedly close victory over the historically underrated Jose Legra to win a title, you're looking at enough proof that Jofre was indeed a hell of a fighter.

How great was he? Where should be placed?

Tough to say. If you want to make a case for someone else being rated more highly at bantamweight, I'm willing to read it. And while I think you're underrating some of the names on his featherweight resume, I'd agree that it's not enough to warrant inclusion on say, an all-time Featherweight list. Maybe Honorable mention...But no more than that.

Still, I think given what he got done, and who he beat throughout the course of his career, it's safe to say that this guy was a hell of a fighter. And, I'd be hard pressed to name 50 guys who were better than he was.

30, maybe...40, depending on your criteria. But anything beyond that is seriously stretching it, at least from where I stand.

All right, I'm done with my second rant. I await your response. Thanks for the debate, btw. This has been fun. :good

 

Well, Harda had the perfect style to foil Jofre. Jofre had trouble making weight for those fights too. In the history of the bantam weight division, Jorfe should rate no lower than 3rd of all time. The little guys burn out quickly. Jofre was good enough to retire, then come back years later in his 30's to win a belt back. Offensively, Jorfe was very skilled. A true pound for pound fighter who also rates on a pound for pound puncher's list. Jorfe is also one of the few ATG's never to be stopped.

 

So let's assume that Jofre was fighting today, locked down the WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO belts for 4-5 years, then went on to beat the Featherweight champ and beat a few other featherweight contenders.

How do you think we would be ranking such a fighter today, even assuming they were fighting in this **** era, and not in the better one Jofre was in?

Let's offer an analogy: imagine Kostya Tszyu didn't lose to Phillips or Hatton but took a couple of close decision losses to Floyd Mayweather, the second of which some felt he won, and then moved up and beat Winky Wright at 154 around 2005, together with a past his best Javier Castillejo, Bronco McKart and Verno Phillips. How would we rank such a fighter?

That sweet_scientist only comes out for the duckers and dodgers that STILL manage to have losses - not the guys that genuinely take on all comers and take losses.

 

Wow, that´s detailed. Thank you. Interesting.

 

I guess he was lucky that he got to fight the guys that beat them like Rollo, Sanchez and Caldwell.

What was that you said again about mixing up accomplishments with resumes?

You can look at that MD against Legra as suspect, but really is it anymore suspect than a DLH getting wins in his 'home' town against the likes of Whitaker and Quartey? Does that totally discredit DLH's performances in those fights?

Had Jofre fought Harada at home, he'd have probably got the nod in both fights, and whilst the first would be regarded as a robbery, I doubt the second one would have.

 

And to summarise:

More weight classes today + more championship belts = more "champions" + less fighters actually facing the top fighters in a division

Having been a champion = not necessarily an indication of being a better fighter than someone without a belt