Remembering Whitaker - Chavez: images from the most important fight of the 1990s

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by sweet_scientist, Jan 27, 2009.


  1. divac

    divac Loyal Member Full Member

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    The Duva's advised Pernell Whitaker to jump ahead to 147 lbs and not to fight Chavez at 140 lbs where he was proven and dangerous.......thus why the fight was later made at Welter.

    Scientist does'nt like me mentioning it, but Pernell Whitaker abandoned the 140 lbs weight class he had just stepped into.....the weight class that reigned the consensus best P4P fighter in the world, Julio Cesar Chavez!
    The Duva's wanting no part of Chavez at 140 lbs.


    Pernell Whitaker was great, there is no denying it........but Scientist's balloon must be deflated just a tad........:hey
    .......Pernell Whitakers two best career performances were his draw with JC Chavez, and his UD win over Azumah Nelson, and note that the draw with Chavez was at a weight where Chavez never held a world title in.....

    .....the same with Nelson....Whitakers win against Nelson was at 135 lbs, Nelson never holding a world title at that weight.

    Exellent performances by Whitaker on both occasions, but its worth noting the weights where those fights were fought!;)
     
  2. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

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    Good stuff divac :thumbsup
     
  3. dave82

    dave82 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    With all due respect what does matter if they held the title or not? They were still quality fighters. Just say a fighter defeated Sam Langford back in the day, are we going to limit the praise because Sam never actually won a world title?

    Just a thought
     
  4. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It wasn't as simple as all that though Vlade. Dan Duva had promotional control of Taylor and Camacho, and they were trying to initially lure Chavez to 147 to rematch Taylor, and then Duva wanted to match up Camacho and Chavez in anticipation of a clash with Whitaker. In the meantime, Whitaker moved to 147 and beat the p4p ranked Buddy McGirt (who probably put up a better fight than Chavez did actually) and the fight was fought at a catchweight ensuring that Whitaker's belt was on th line and that Chavez could attempt the 4 weight feat.

    I don't really think there would have been much difference if the fight had occured at 140 a year or so earlier. It wasn't as if Whitaker was a huge welterweight or anything. Both he and Chavez were lightweights in their mid twenties. Whitaker simply faired better at welterweight because he operated on the principle of hitting and not getting hit in return. If we has a fighter that took punishment like Chavez was, he too would not have been succesful at 147.


    Those performances are complemented nicely though with other wins, like the McGirt wins and other lightweight solid competition. I think what is so impressive about Whitaker though is not just his wins ( and draws ) but also his losses. Fighting past his prime, and being a 3-1 underdog he turned back the clock and gave DLH absolute fits, and even when totally shot against Tito Trinidad he showed his mettle in slugging it out with Felix, even when he sustained a broken jaw. This was a guy that was pasting everyone else he fought around the time.

    Whitaker through and through proved his greatness, even if guys like Chavez and Nelson were better at other weight classes. :good
     
  5. imp4pdabest

    imp4pdabest Guest

    Its possible for a fighter to be shot at 30. Vargas comes to mind.
     
  6. divac

    divac Loyal Member Full Member

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    Chavez was not a world class Welterweight and Nelson was not a world class lightweight......I think thats very much worth noting!
     
  7. dave82

    dave82 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Shot?! I'm not soo sure. He lost to Trinidad, De La Hoya, Mosley x2 and Mayorga. Apart from the 2nd fight against Mosley he gave the other opponents a good run. He may not have been as good as he was back in 99, but no where near shot.
     
  8. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think what is relevant though is that Whitaker didn't really beat them because of physical strength and power, the things opponents have that bother fighters when they move up weight classes. He outskilled them, and that's what makes his wins great.
     
  9. dave82

    dave82 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It appears that many experts thought he was before the Whitaker fight.
     
  10. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Whitaker was a lightweight up until a year and a half before the fight happened. It wasn't as if Whitaker was a fully fledged welterweight. Chavez had been campaigning for 4 years at 140 whilst Whitaker was at 135. Hence they figured weight wouldn't be an issue. In fact, if you look around some of the predictions of the time, like I posted, people thought the weight would actually be less advantageous to Whitaker than it was to Chavez, becuase Whitaker had lost quite a bit of speed and sharpness from his move from 135 to 147.
     
  11. dave82

    dave82 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think Divac is aware of this and perhaps was a little reluctant to mention it. Either way, he is entitled to his opinion. As the saying goes "Agree to disagree"
     
  12. 4Rounder

    4Rounder Boxing Addict Full Member

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    :good

    Well said!
     
  13. imp4pdabest

    imp4pdabest Guest

    Okay, thats fair to say. But some of these posters act like all boxers peak and fade at the same age. When Tarver was 28, he was just getting started.
     
  14. divac

    divac Loyal Member Full Member

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    I'll respect your opinion Scientist, even though we each spin the happenings differently.:D


    Let me just add my respect to both Whitaker and Chavez as the great champions that they were......
    When I look at fighters today jumping up multiple weight classes 4, 5 and 6 weight classes above where they originally started and somehow physically looking better than in thier more youthful prime days......

    .......I cant help but think that fighters like Chavez and Whitaker won multiple world titles in different weight classes because they were simply great.......

    In the past, a 3 or 4 pound weight disparity was huge......in todays times it does'nt make much difference.

    I cant help but think that fighters today are doing it the unnatural way, when Chavez and Whitaker did it the natural way.

    When I think of things like that......it makes me appreciate the greats of the past that much more.
     
  15. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    For Chavez in particular it is impressive because he did it without the half year breaks that a lot of fighters have today to bulk up. And he probably wasn't exactly scientific in his training either. Fighters today might be gearing up, some are without doubt, but it's also the scientific approach and long gestation periods before fights that helps them scale weight classes as if they are nothing. Totally different approach to the one taken by JCC. :good

    Of course, there's also the issue of cherry picking which doesn't help matters. It's one thing to jump up and fight the 5th best fighter in the division that has some gold junk around his waist, it's another thing to fight the best fighter out there at the weight class.

    I could go on about how the general standard of boxing today is weaker on the whole from times in the past, and that guys like an ancient Mosley (and Hopkins) belting the Margatiro's and giving the Cotto's a pretty much even fight shows the decline of the sport in general, but that's for another thread, and another day.