Respect Harry "Kid" Matthews

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Undefeated Lachbuster, Dec 1, 2019.



  1. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    On Matthews being rated at heavyweight. He was rated in the August, 1952 issue of Ring (ratings to June 13, 1952)

    Champion-Jersey Joe Walcott
    1-Rocky Marciano
    2-Ezzard Charles
    3-Roland LaStarza
    4-Coley Wallace
    5-Clarence Henry
    6-Harry Matthews
    7-Johnny Williams
    8-Bob Dunlop
    9-Cesar Brion
    10-Jimmy Bivins

    Also rated in the September issue (ratings to July 18, 1952)
    Champion-Jersey Joe Walcott
    1-Rocky Marciano
    2-Ezzard Charles
    3-Roland LaStarza
    4-Coley Wallace
    5-Clarence Henry
    6-Harry Matthews
    7-Johnny Williams
    8-Bob Dunlop
    9-Rex Layne
    10-Jimmy Bivins

    Does anyone know about the NBA ratings? I read once that Matthews was rated #2 there, but I would like to know for certain.

    Matthews was still rated in the top 10 at heavyweight in the Ring off and on in 1953.

    As for Layne being not rated, I think it a moot point when Layne was rated before and after fighting Matthews. If he was rated that month is not relevant to me. Theoretically a man could be a champion both before and after a fight in which he wasn't rated that month. Would that make him a lesser scalp than a guy whose only ever rating was #10 but it was in that month? I just don't see the point.

    as for the 1921 birthday, thank you. All internet sources I could find listed Matthews as being born in 1922, so this new info makes him a year older but still rather young. He defeated Hostak at 20. But the fact that he didn't train for the fights against Chase and Booker totally undercuts these defeats as meaning much and actually strengthens his record.
     
  2. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Layne was unranked by the NBA when he fought Matthews (I couldnt care less about the Ring ratings as they had no baring on who got a title shot and were completely unofficial and often juiced by Fleischer to manipulate his sales). However, pretending like he was some bum at the time is ridiculous. He had defeated Walcott a year and a half earlier and Walcott was now the champion. He would defeat Charles less than three months after losing to Matthews. Charles had just dropped a very close disputed decision to Walcott for the title and would go undefeated in his next nine fights. He was still two years away from giving Marciano hell. LaStarza was ranked #4 by the NBA and Layne would go on to drop a very close split decision to him that was a one round swing on the two cards that went to LaStarza. Bob Dunlap was rated #8 and Layne had knocked him out two years earlier. So while Layne was technically unranked at the time of the Matthews fight he was not only right in the mix but he was also a far more proven contender than some of the other guys ranked at that time by the NBA such as Dunlap, Johnny Williams, Heinz Neuhaus, and Coley Wallace.
     
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Thanks for the info on the monthly ratings I don't have access to them.
    Layne was is a spiral decline I think we can all accept that , unless you think he would have been floored 3 times and beaten on point by 11-2-1 Willie James,before he was kod by Marciano.After being brutally ko'd by Marciano, Layne had a further 31 fights,winning 16 losing 15 and being stopped 5 times .I take that as clear evidence of decline. The Chase and Booker fights were a month apart and 7 months after the 2nd Hostak fight.So its not like he was being pulled off the production line at Ford and thrown in a the ring is it?.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Nobody used the term bum to describe Layne and I never use it when referring to a professional fighter .I said he was past his best.What he had done a year and a half earlier doesn't necessarily indicate he is capable of duplicating that feat 18 months later.The fact that he was beaten by the obscure Willie James 11-2-1 and floored 3 times in the process indicates evidence of a clear decline.James would be kod in his next 2 fights.
    .The fact that after being savaged by Marciano, Layne had a further 31 fights and lost 15 of them being stopped 5 times, reinforces this view.
    And Layne wasn't some old man dropping decisions because of wear and tear and age he was only 28 when he retired!

    The Charles fight was widely seen as a robbery.I haven't seen it so cannot give a personal opinion on it.
    Layne had knocked out Dunlap 2 years earlier? Well whoop de doo!
    Layne weighed 193.5lbs for that fight Dunlap176lbs!
    Dunlap was ko'd in 2 rounds in his next fight by Clarence Henry and wouldn't become a factor in the heavyweight division for another 2 years!
    I question Lastarza's credentials as a credible world title challenger, a split decision over a declining Layne doesn't cut it for me.Three fights before getting his shot at Marciano, Lastarza lost to journeyman light heavy Rocky Jones and he was floored in the rematch. Lastarza's manager parlayed the close decision loss to Marciano and the close split dec win over Layne into a title shot clever management but undeserved imo.
    You mentioned Heinz Neuhaus? Layne could only draw with him.
    It was in Germany so may have been a hometown decision, but he lost the rematch,losing to the moderate Neuhaus is further evidence of decline.imo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  6. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Don’t really understand the disdain for Lastarza. He to was a really good fighter . Not great but looks good on film to me. Had a nice chin and fundamentals just didn’t do anything great imo. Was really good at everything (except power) just not great.
     
  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't have disdain for him ,I just think he was a protected fighter who was skillfully manoeuvered into a title shot.
    He was a good fighter but nothing wonderful,imo.
     
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  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    John Ochs in his second volume of these times, states Mathews turned pro just after his 15th birthday,his Father lying about his age.
     
  9. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't know what you are trying to say about Matthews concerning Chase and Booker. The posts by KasimirKid and Klompton2 indicate Matthews was in the army and took these two fights while on furlough without training in order to get money for his family. Booker and Chase were top notch fighters. Booker scored wins over Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, and Holman Williams. Chase over Moore, Marshall, and Booker. Losing to these men under any circumstances would be no embarrassment. Losing with no training wipes Matthews' slate clean for me concerning these two defeats.

    I think if you want to discuss the Chase and Booker fights, you should take it up with Klompton2 and KasismirKid as all I know about these fights comes from them.

    Willie James was considered a physically imposing fighter who many felt was a threat to really make a mark but whose career never took off with the Layne victory standing alone. James also KO'd a young Burt Whitehurst and Olympic champion Ed Sanders and won recognition as the New England champion. It was a bad defeat for Layne, but Layne is hard to judge because he was a lax trainer who often wasn't in shape to give his best. There was a post a while ago claiming that his manager took the James fight on short notice during a period when Layne wasn't training, but who knows. I don't buy into the worst performance defines a fighter argument. Layne beat a lot of good men but clearly went downhill after Marciano. I don't think, though, he was the setup for Matthews you are making him out to be.
     
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  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't have a problem with Mathews losing to Booker and Chase,I wouldn't have mentioned them except the OP said the Chase v Mathews fight was close,it wasn't.
    Can we agree Layne was not the same man who went into the ring with Marciano ? I never said Layne was a set up but I very much doubt Hurley would have put Mathews in with the early Layne.
    Layne had fought just a week earlier and 3 months before that.

    Willie James has one win of note .Right or wrong?
    He was 11-2-1 Right or wrong? .
    Sanders was 6-1-1 and he was more physically imposing than James.
    That doesn't win you fights.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  11. Dance84

    Dance84 Unicorn and seastar land Full Member

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    man fighter back then fought alot more than today

    dudes didnt **** around
     
  12. Chuck1052

    Chuck1052 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Jack Hurley liked Rex Layne's potential and thought that he was being rushed into facing top competition before he was ready. Hurley would have had Layne fight in the western part of the U.S. to let him get more seasoning before facing top fighters in the East.

    - Chuck Johnston
     
  13. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Depends what you consider of note. Whitehurst was an undefeated prospect when James beat him and over his career would score wins over Hurricane Jackson, Bob Satterfield, and Franco Cavicchi. Sanders was the Olympic champion and was considered a great prospect. He died after the fight with James. James had one more fight against Bob Baker and then understandably quit the sport.

    Fighters were matched tough early in those days, especially African-American fighters, but sometimes also white fighters. Having a number of early defeats was not unusual.

    Here are some early records of high-ranking contenders of the era:

    Hurricane Jackson--began his career 14-2-1
    Earl Walls--began his career 11-3
    Tommy Harrison--began his career 11-4
    Jimmy Slade--began his career 9-2-1

    Here are the early records of Hall-of-Famers:

    Joey Maxim--began his career 10-5
    Jimmy Bivins--began his career 11-4
    Jake LaMotta--began his career 16-3-1
    Ike Williams--began his career 10-4-2
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Which rather contradicts the importance of him not being that diligent in training since he had 2 fights inside 9 days!
     
  15. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Marv Jensen signed Layne to fight James on six days notice sight unseen in order to get him back in the spotlight out east. It was a monumental blunder and Jensen admitted it. James was the New England HW champion. He had two defeats to his name, both came against far more experienced opposition. The defeat to Lowery was caused by a headbutt which opened a cut on his forehead. When James couldnt continue the bout was awarded to Lowery. Had Jensen been able to scout James he would have found out that James was a tall, lanky fighter who boxed from the outside. Layne, who was poorly trained for the match, was an inside fighter who liked to bang to the body. The result was that James was able to keep Layne outside while whenever he worked his way inside the fight devolved into a sloppy series of clinches. James legitimately won, and no he wasnt a great fighter either, but it helps to understand the context of that fight. Layne turned pro in mid 1949 and was fighting and beating the top guys in the division a year and half later. Thats nearly unheard of in that era. There is some credence to the idea that he was rushed and slightly in over his head. Did he burn out early because of this? Maybe, but he wasnt a shot fighter when Matthews beat him. I have no doubt that Hurley looked at Layne and thought of him as a high profile, vulnerable, stepping stone but at the same time Layne was still right in the mix with everyone and competitive with the best names south of Marciano who was in the process of storming his way to the title. He remains a nice win on Matthews' record, not just an empty name.