Reverse a loss from any fighter that would have the biggest impact on thier legacy

Duodenum · Sep 12, 2007

Bill1234 said:

Nice post and all, but I think your a little :nut
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Only a little:nut? (I thought I was full-blown demented!)

The Morlocks · Mar 30, 2020

Duodenum said: ↑

Holmes had only one match in 1984 (Bonecrusher Smith), and he was thwarted from defending the title against Larry Frazier while being forced to wait for Cooney. I felt he should have already had the records of both Marciano and Louis in hand, by the time of his title defense against Mike Spinks.

He did surpass Louis and Marciano in a few dramatic ways. On page 90 of the 1957 Ring Record Book, there is a listing of: MEN WHO WERE UNDEFEATED WHEN THEY WON WORLD TITLES. Only Jack McAuliffe, John L. Sullivan, Willie Pep, Vic Toweel, Jimmy Carruthers and Rocky Marciano had not been held to a draw at the time of winning their titles. In 1985, against Carl Williams, Larry Holmes became the first of the subsequent names on that list to reach 20 successful title defenses, a staggering achievement for an undefeated boxer to realize. Furthermore, he successfully defended his title in eight consecutive calendar years, where as Joe Louis set the time span record for all divisions with the aid of a hiatus of over three years during WW II. Perhaps Ali would have trashed all these records, if his draft status had never been reclassified from 4-F to 1-A, and he is one of my three co number ones. (Dempsey is the third.)

Marciano may have gotten to 49-0, but could he have gotten to 20 title defenses in eight calendar years as Holmes did?

Where Larry really blew the doors off of everybody else in my view, was by recovering from his devastating loss to Tyson, by shrewdly dominating undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist Mercer over 12 rounds, at age 42. Marciano, Louis and Ali could not have done that, and Foreman knocked out Moorer with a single punch. (Moorer was also a former light heavyweight who had been floored by a severely hampered Holyfield in winning the title. Mercer was a big boy from the get go, who unlike Moorer, was apparently impervious. For Larry to win, he had to prevail over the 12 round distance.) Moorer may have been the lineal champion, but I think Holmes/Mercer was a more impressive performance than Foreman/Moorer. Finally, a real case can be made that Tyson and Holyfield were Larry's only two legitimate defeats.

Holmes and Foreman were competing at the top at an age when Marciano was boxing Ali in a staged performance. Can you imagine Marciano making a successful comeback against Ellis or Frazier in 1969? Ridiculous! Yet Holmes and Foreman did it. Between the two of them, Larry obviously had the greater championship career. I also think Holmes would have had the best chance at defeating all of history's other champions.

I rate Dempsey as a co-number one because of his performance capacity against Willard. Yes, Jess was ready to be taken, but Dempsey would have been a menace against anybody on that occasion.
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Good post. Where did you go?

mark ant · Mar 30, 2020

ironchamp said: ↑

Spinks-Tyson: Whoa!!!

IF Micheal Spinks had won his legacy IMO would have skyrocketed.

But Frazier Foreman II would have been better for Frazier in terms of legacy IMO. If Foreman never beats Frazier in Jamaica, Foreman wouldnt be looked at in the same manner. Frazier needed to lose to Foreman in order to give Foreman credibility. Because if Frazier beat him the first time; We'd all undermine his win.

My personal pick is Tyson vs. Lewis. Its the one fight in Tyson's career that would have erased a decade of transgressions.

Not to be a copy cat but Tyson Holyfield II is next. I'm probably the only person who watches that fight in foresight. I always reach the part right before the bite and hope for a different outcome each time.

Jones Tarver II: Even if you don't like Roy Jones Junior, its the one fate I would have never wished on him to suffer and early round 1 punch KO.
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It didn`t matter that Tyson bit Holy he was fighting really badly in that bout anyway, he looked nervous.

mark ant · Mar 30, 2020

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

It's a hard call really. Even if he beat Lewis he still has that big gaping Holyfield hole in his career. At least if he beat Holy in the rematch his fans could say he was shot vs Lewis, as they do.
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Tyson was completely gone v Lewis.

mark ant · Mar 30, 2020

Hearns v Leonard 1 Tommy was outboxing Ray, if he hadn`t got careless and got caught leading to Ray getting on top, he would now be seen as almost unbeatable at welter and he went on to never be defeated at 154 so the case might have been made that maybe only Robinson could have beat Hearns under 154, he was awesome.

JohnThomas1 · Mar 30, 2020

mark ant said: ↑

Tyson was completely gone v Lewis.
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He was gone within 24hrs of sacking Rooney wasn't he Mark?

George Crowcroft · Mar 30, 2020

Ezzard Charles vs...

Alvin Green
George Logan
Donnie Fleaman
Alfredo Zuany
Dick Richardson
Harry Matthews
Pat McMurtry
Wayne Bethea
Young Jack Johnson
Toxie Hall
Tommy Jackson 2
Tommy Jackson 1
John Holman
Rocky Marciano 2
Rocky Marciano 1
Harold Johnson
Nino Valdes
Rex Layne
Jersey Joe Walcott 4
Jersey Joe Walcott 3
Elmer Ray 1
Lloyd Marshall 1
Jimmy Bivins 1
Kid Turnero
Ken Overlin 2
Ken Overlin 1

Heisenberg · Mar 30, 2020

Richard Steele lets Taylor carry on and he takes a SD against Chavez... should of been a UD but Chuck Giampa had Chavez ahead. Taylor’s career may have panned out completely differently but then again that fight may have just taken his soul either way

George Crowcroft · Mar 30, 2020

Archie Moore vs Muhammad Ali

Saad54 · Mar 30, 2020

Yaqui Lopez v. Galindez 1 and 2.

Yaqui Lopez v. Saad 2

Saad54 · Mar 30, 2020

Heisenberg said: ↑

Richard Steele lets Taylor carry on and he takes a SD against Chavez... should of been a UD but Chuck Giampa had Chavez ahead. Taylor’s career may have panned out completely differently but then again that fight may have just taken his soul either way
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His career plays out similarly because the damage was done, but he's remembered better ie his legacy is elevated because of beating Chavez.

stormenic · Mar 30, 2020

How about Naseem vs Barrera? Naseem would beat Barrera with easy and stay undefeated

Canelo vs Mayweather? Imagine the buzz surrounding Canelo

clum · Mar 30, 2020

Sumbu Kalambay against Michael Nunn. That loss (not just the loss itself but the nature of it also) basically prevents a lot of people from taking him seriously and consequently he can't even get on the HOF ballot.

Also, if he doesn't lose that fight then he probably isn't confined to Europe for the rest of his career and thus gets more exposure.

roughdiamond · Mar 30, 2020

Reverse some of the debatable decisions for Alan Rudkin and you would have an ATG win list - peak Harada, peak Rose etc.

DrederickTatum · Mar 30, 2020

Bill1234 said: ↑

Holmes-Holyfield. If Larry beat Holyfield the way he beat Mercer, then not only would he have landed a peak Holyfield his first loss, but he would also become the new oldest heavyweight champion of the world at 42, almost 43 years old. That IMO would seal his place in the top 5.
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Place him top 5 heavyweights, or top 5 P4P?

For me Holmes is top 5 heavyweights as his career stands.

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