review of Tyson holyfield 1 and why tyson would have won in 1991(imo)

Because Holy was better than anybody Tyson previously faced maybe? He's better and I promise you Tyson never forgot about that sparring session.

 

Given how poor Tyson looked in the second Ruddock fight...no, Evander takes it. Not without difficulty, I'm sure Holyfield would find himself in hairy situations as he always. But Evander was always too great an infighter and in 91, he didn't have the stamina issues that plagued him in the mid 90s.

 

What exactly is Tyson's mental weakness anyways? We all have demons, some are beaten, some are not. What I'm saying is simple: too much is made out of Tyson's mental weaknesses.

There's a video from the '91 press conference where Tyson's wearing a white top hat. He's commending Holyfield as a great fighter with a calm, poised and serene voice. In the end he claims to be the better fighter and says he'll prove it in the ring come November. You can see his demeanor being far different than the '96 press conference, where he's pouring on the Tyson bully mystique a bit too much.

Anyways, I don't think Tyson's mental weakness has anything to do with fighters standing up to him. His mental weakness was staying focused and fighting hungry.

 

How do we know Tyson wouldn't use that encounter as inspiration? He was 17 years old then and Holyfield was 22. Maybe he was more embarrassed and didn't know how to react?

 

Tyson was always bonkers, like most boxers.

The issue is Holyfield is the best infighting heavyweight of the 90s, and unless you have 30 pounds and several inches of height to lay on him like Lewis or Bowe you are going to get beat up. And in Bowe's case he still got beat up.

 

Not sure about that. Tyson was still dangerous and its arguable that he still had the speed, power and stamina to give the smaller, less savvy Holy of '91 real problems. Consider that the much bigger Ruddock was unable to get Tyson out of there even when landing his best punch multiple times. Ruddock wasnt an all timer but he landed a lot, and took a lot. That could lead you to believe Evander would have a hell of a time hurting Tyson, no way Holy hit harder than Ruddock.

Also a factor is Tyson could fight for 12 rounds in 91, which he couldn't by 96, this was a big factor in him losing that fight, he ran out of steam. Tyson's combinations against Ruddock were at times devastating, the body work also. All that would have had an impact, he took more breaks and was easier to hit but I still believe this isn't a clear cut Holy always wins scenario, far from it.

I think these two would have had a great fight in 91 but I find it easy to believe Tyson would have not been hurt badly enough by Holy and could have pulled out the win by around round 7, the punishment would have been too much and a gallant Holyfield would be reeling in the ropes until a TKO stoppage.

I think Holy could get his own back in a fight a few years later though, I believe Tyson would have fallen off quickly after 91 but he was still dangerous at that time. the ruddock fights get underrated because Tyson doesn't look as good on his feet and wasnt as elusive, but he was still a force, Ruddock took a hell of a beating and it probably damaged him as a fighter.

Anyway my mind changes on this a lot but that's how I feel today lol when it comes down to it I think they are fairly evenly matched. Evander's fighting spirit is his ace card but Tyson's is his speed and power, which could make that fighting spirit redundant.

 

We all go a little mad sometimes.

Well Tyson was big for a short heavyweight. Holyfield wouldn't give Tyson room on the inside nor time to set up his offense. He'd shorten the gap between them but opens himself up to Tyson's body attack which would've been relied upon more at that particular time. But I don't think Holyfield's game plan from '96 would've been implemented in '91. Plus he wouldn't have Gary Bell and David Tua to emulate Tyson's style in sparring.

Incredible match up in '91. Probably the best heavyweight fight never made, and that includes Dempsey-Wills and Bowe-Lewis.

 

why would i do that? holyfield ko's tyson every time. i'm just wondering why that one guy picked norton over holyfield. norton is a greater boxer than holyfield? get the **** outta here

 

He did in 96 too.

Ruddock landed sporadic power shots, Holyfield broke Tyson down with a sustain assault of jabs, short counters, and combinations. Evander worked the body consistently, Ruddock did not. I don't buy Holyfield being unable to hurt Tyson given he hurt Tyson when they actually fought.

Just because mid 90s Tyson took his opponents out before 12, doesn't mean he couldn't go 12. As for Tyson running out of steam, outside of a few moments, he was getting out boxed and taking flush punishment from the word "go" Evander hurt him as early as Round 1, man. That's why Tyson stopped and smiled after that combo to the body and head, he felt it.

Holyfield vs Tyson in 96 was supposed to be clear cut, Tyson got knocked out by an Evander who was older and had only gone 5 rounds with Cyz in a bad performance in the previous year. Think about that. Tyson in the previous 12 months actually clocked more rounds.

You are looking at this one sided. You keep talking about Tyson vs Ruddock but what about Evander eating flush shots from Foreman or going toe to toe with Bowe for 12 rounds. Tyson couldn't put away Ruddock convincingly but he's going to stop Evander in the mid rounds? I find that very hard to believe.

Depends, 93 Bowe II I believe to be the best Holyfield performance. But 94 against Moorer is his worse, with the shoulder/heart whatever business. As for Tyson, who knows what happens if he didn't go to prison.

But you aren't considering what Evander displayed against Bowe in what is largely considerd one of the best Heavyweight fights of all time.

I have a hard time imagining Tyson taking it.

A couple things to consider. Tyson did go to Evander's body when it was there, Tyson had a heck of a speed and power advantage in 96.

What did 96 Holyfield have that was so special? Evander was always a crafty in fighter. We can talk about weight, but he put that muscle on specifically for Tyson, just like he did for the Bowe rematch all the way back in 93.

 

Tyson was no chance of winning the first. He was miles behind going into the 11th and had no chance of stopping Holyfield as Evander had been easily shipping his best shots all night.

He'd already shot his wad in the second too for mine. Evander was too good, certainly when they fought.

 

This is spot on. Ruddock was basically a one trick pony and telegraphed his shots. While he had more one punch power than Holyfield Holyfield was a much more dangerous talented two fisted fighter.

 

That was a decent counter argument

my view of Tyson in 96 is that he was a bit of a con. he still had speed and power but he was like a shiny Ferrari with no engine. he didn't set up his attacks in the same way, his form and leverage was off and he was plodding with his movement after a few rounds. against a decent fighter 96 Tyson was exposed as teh rusty fighter he was, with no decent trainer to guide him.

its difficult to say because Holy hurt Tyson in 96 he would in 91. Tyson was a lot more robust and less easily discouraged in 91. take into account that Tyson looked more exhausted in the 96 fight, he was broken down but his lacking stamina played a part imo. Holyfield did have a better repertoire but I'd still argue he would have trouble hurting a Tyson that was younger and fitter. I visualise him landed on Tyson but he would be getting hit back as well which would slow his own offence.

some evidence is there to counter this though. the fact Tyson never went 12 rounds in the mid 90s helps this case. you are right that Tyson was getting beat up but I dont believe his reaction to this would have been the same in 91. As said he was more robust and confident, he would walk though some of those punches and land his own counters. Tyson had no real confidence in 96, he hadn't faced a decent fighter in over four years. this has to take an effect when suddenly faced with an on form Holyfield. Tyson did not have the same mentality, as soon as Holy landed you could see his discomfort.

that's one way of seeing it. Another is that Tyson fought guys that barely challenged him in his comback, so by 96 he had no had a stiff challenge for five years, four if these years he wasn't even competing, not accustomed to taking punches etc. when he did come back he was basically training himself. his preparation for fighting a decent on form Holyfield (who went on to more success) couldn't have been worse but he has himself to blame and I take that into account in my top ten in terms of longevity. But this doesn't change the fact he was a lot better in 91 than he was in 96. Holy didn't look great but he was competing, used to a real fight and he proved his career was on the up again, a few years later he gave Lewis a few decent fights.

Holy was the older man but he was on better form that a rusty Tyson was in 96.

I don't find it hard to believe. Evander had a great chin bit he wasn't invulnerable. He took some big punches from Foreman but they were not frequent enough to put him away. He was hurt bad by a Bowe uppercut, one of Tyson's best punches, he was hurt a lot by Bowe. Bert Cooper had him reeling on the ropes, you could argue Tyson would have finished him right there in the 5th. Tyson was an all time finisher remember, for all his faults. Now I can see Holy surviving like he did against Bowe so its not all one way traffic with me, but today I'm going with Tyson landing too much for Holy to come back from.

yeah Holyfield did have that rough patch didn't he. I just feel once Tyson's main ingredients as a fighter go he would always become a one dimensional slugger. his skills were already slipping as it was. I have a hard time thinking Mike does well in the 90s, I think he was basically an 80s phenomenon that wouldn't be able to sustain that form, especially without his old team. I think from 91 he would have continued to slip. That's why I believe by 96 he was simply half the fighter, if that.

I do consider that, I was in awe of the man and it showed you literally had to pound him out of there to win. That fight and a few others is why I sometimes sway with these two, I really thing at their beat they were fairly evenly matched. Tyson would always have a hard time dealing with Holyfields tough mentality but I believe his brute force could even that score and wear Holy down like was by Bowe.

Like I said, I do sway on it from time to time but I am definitely not of the mind Holyfield beats Tyson 100 out of 100 times. I think at their best they can beat each other, all Tyson needs is that temple shot that gets Holy going or just hurting him enough to go in for the kill. You are right that Holy has his own special qualities that could get him the win, he adapted in a way I didn't believe he could in the Bowe rematch.

 

I think his engine is getting under sold. He took an absolute hiding for 11 rounds and never stopped trying.

You can put clips side by side of the Ruddock and Holyfield fights, and see Tyson using identical set ups, identical form, identical movements, combinations..which I hope I wont' have to do because I'm feeling lazy today.

That's the thing with Tyson, he always set up his attacks the same way. He was machine in that regard, for better or worse.

I must strongly disagree. Tyson's best moments were in 5 and early stages of 6. Evander was lazy in those moments and let Tyson get his combos off. He didn't look plodding to me, it was a vintage Tyson highlight reel.

He wasn't easily discouraged in 96. He went at Evander with everything he had for 11 rounds, he ate some tremendous punishment.

Because he got the hell beat out of him. Watch Tyson's expressions when Evander rips those shots to his body.

Of course you could see his discomfort, he was getting his ass kicked. Basically what you are saying here is if Tyson was more confident he could have willed his way through the punishment and got to Evander, that's just not realistic. This isn't Biggs pitter patter, Evander was loading up on those combos, real bad intentions. Evander knew he had to get Tyson's respect and would always approach the fight this way.

We can talk about 5 years but recent history is more relevant. I would say about 6 rounds total with Seldon, Mathis Jr, & Bruno> 5 rounds Czyz.

And so was Evander.

Evander was the one expected to be rusty given his inactivity compared to Tyson.

Not unlike Tyson vs Ruddock.

Yes, Bowe had Holyfield hurt bad in Round 10, and Evander came back and put the big man in trouble. I haven't seen Tyson fight that hard in the late rounds or even come close to putting a guy away in round 10. The one shot he got against Douglas in Round 9 is as close as you are going to get.

And Tyson had Ruddock reeling several times and failed to finish him.

He didn't look like that great a finisher against Ruddock in 91.

Tyson was never one dimensional in the 90s, not even in the horrible Botha performance. Tyson did things seemingly on muscle memory that were more dynamic than most fighters' best stuff.

What helped Bowe was he used his weight to grind Evander down. Evander coming in at 205...one of his lightest weights as a heavy, wasn't expecting Bowe to fight so well on the inside. Evander corrected that in the rematch by coming in at 217, actually heavier than he did for the first Tyson fight.

I'm just not a fan of the Tyson got worse and Evander got better approach. Evander was the one with the deck stacked against him and the odds reflected that, he was the inactive older fighter that looked to be done.

Tyson looked better than Bowe did against Mathis Jr, and was absolutely brilliant against Bruno. There was no fighter in the division of the time that could have done this:

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Tyson looked absolutely brilliant against thy statue named Bruno? He looked the best in his post prison form, I'll give you that, but that had more to do with Bruno being a stationary target. Tyson looked great because of Bruno. He looked horrendous against Mathis a few months earlier. The only shot he lands was the step aside uppercut he catches Mathis with. For 3 full rounds Tyson looked...horrendous! Compared to his prime self, that is.

Anyways, watch Tyson's hand speed post prison. His fluidity is gone and he's slower than before. I remember thinking to myself, wow, he doesn't look that good but he's still knocking people out. Is it because of his aura? Or is it because he still has power? But his timing and balance are shyte!

But the media made it seem that the best Tyson was back. There's an article in Boxing Monthly, a British magazine, right after Tyson beat Bruno for the WBC belt. The tagline read "Mike once again is the baddest, but is he the best?" Bowe is interviewed and picks Tyson apart, claiming his stance is too square, he's off balance and his timing is off. He's only throwing one punch at a time and from way out. That's Bowe saying all this and I hated to agree with him but he was absolutely correct.