review of Tyson holyfield 1 and why tyson would have won in 1991(imo)

One little thing, Holyfield was nowhere near as fast in 96 as he was in 91......

 

I would dispute that. Evander developed pretty reliable defense by 91 and was just slower 5 years later. Yes, he packed on additional muscle for Tyson...just as he did in the Bowe rematch 3 years previously.

People emphasize a younger Evander's lapses but he lapsed against Tyson in 96 too.

I think he would always take Tyson very seriously. The way he showed up to all his fights, watching. I could see why he misjudged Bowe, but I don't see him being overconfident against Tyson.

 

No, Tyson looked great because of Tyson. When has Bruno ever made a fighter look great? He was a tough night for everyone he fought. That finishing combination is one of the finest of Tyson's career.

Bowe looked worse against Mathis Jr, he was a slippery *******. Mathis is easily the best defensive fighter Tyson fought since Tubbs, whom he had similar troubles with...as much trouble as you can have before blowing a guy out in 3 rounds or less.

I'll put together a side by side.

 

But that is 100% based on how Holy made him look. Tyson looked good against almost everyone else, before and after. So it's really only circular logic: "That Holy handled Tyson shows that Tyson was a con so much that a younger and better version of Holy wouldn't have handled a younger and better version of Tyson". You are literally holding the performance of an aging Holy against him. If Tyson's defeat to an aging Holy shows that that Tyson really was a con, so the win doesn't really mean anything - what then could Holyfield possibly have done to show himself the better man that night? Lose?

 

Might be on verge of killing a myth here. Certainly something worth exploring.

91 Tyson vs 96 Tyson: same combination at the opening bell, near identical speed, maybe a tad quicker in 96.

[url]https://gifs.com/gif/91-tyson-vs-96-tyson-KOpXqR[/url]

 

LMFAO! One right hand thrown? Come on dude. That one right hand is supposed to represent that Tyson was the same exact fighter in 96 as he was in 91? From one, count that...ONE, right hand thrown?

 

If Ruddock had gone to the body more with the Smash he would have stopped Tyson late on.

 

I'm going to have to direct you to the post you quoted for what I actually said. Contro managed to address it, I'm sure you can to.

 

Still a smudge quicker in the way he follows the jab with the right.

Okay, so progress was made. Tyson's hand speed was still there.

We shall see.

His foot work does look spot on in this short clip.

 

He made it to the 11 but didn't have the energy to mount anything effective enough to do any damage after round 6, he just plodded along and his chin allowed him to take the punishment. Id agree that Holyfield played a part in this with his own attacks but Tyson'a energy levels were not what they were in 91, how could you expect otherwise? you are looking at a 30 year old swarmer versus a 24 year old?

Ruddock was pounding Tyson as well, maybe not as sustained as you pointed out but the power shots negate that for me. Ruddock was landing power combinations arguably hurting him more than Holy during the fight but Tyson was strong until the end of those bouts. Even if Holy was so much more effective breaking Tyson down, in 91 Tyson showed his stamina was a lot better with a bigger stronger fighter hurting him with power shots.

I don't need to put clips side by side, I have already done it. There is no way anyone can tell me Tyson's combination punching in 96 was as effective as it was in 91. his youth played a big part, his punches had more energy behind them and were executed more naturally. they were just more ferocious.

you can put a clip side by side showing the same punch and it will tell you nothing but part of the story. you can do this with any fighter and say "yeah he throws it like he did ten years before" not taking into account the energy and snap produced.

by 91 he was falling into bad patterns so I could agree he was more predictable with his set ups but he fought with much more ferocity and determination than he did in 96, that's what I believe Holyfield would find a challenge.

Ok Tyson had that bit of success in round 5 with his vintage combo but that was pretty much it the whole fight apart from a few decent right hands. I think he would have landed that combination a lot more frequently in 91. Again I think this is down to energy. Tyson let Holyfield bull him around partly because he didn't have the stamina to counter this, especially later in the fight. I thought Tyson looked plodding feet wise as early as round two.

I disagree. Tyson didn't like getting hit post prison, you could see him question himself and almost look shocked. Evander hurt Tyson in round two and Mike seemed to shut down for a sec before it looked like he got hold of himself. Ruddock was whacking Tyson with arguably harder shots early in their fights, the difference is Tyson didn't blink, he just fought on, he had a fighting mindset based on reality.

by 96 he didnt know really what he had left, so he dealt with getting hit a lot differently. You appear to be bolstering Tyson and saying how well he did to fit your own agenda, Tyson's highlight reels in 96, great stamina etc. this is a guy that had been broken down by prison and inactivity, he was a mirage of what he was before, pretending otherwise is ignoring these factors.

Its a good point, Evander was definitely more damaging with his offence but as I mentioned, Tyson dealt differently to getting hit. and this was apparent very early in the 96 fight. with more confidence Tyson was able to continue fighting regardless of taking punches. How come he didn't look as uncomfortable early in the Ruddock fights when he took arguably harder shots in round 1 and 2, yes not as sustained by Tyson took some hard punches, didn't blink and fought on.

I know I point to Ruddock a lot but this is some of the only evidence we have in 91 and I think it is a better representation than a lot of people give these fights credit for. There is no getting around it, Tyson got hit hard and hurt a good few times, how come he didn't look discouraged at all, no sign of it. yet in round two against Holy he freezes for a minute and looks confused. he could get pounded on for 12 rounds by a bigger Ruddock but Holy has him uncomfortable in round two? Holy is great but not that great.

recent history is less relevant when it doesn't mean much though, and I don't believe Tyson's comeback fights meant a whole lot. you will have to excuse me only counting Bruno as a legit challenge but even then poor Frank was so frightened he let Tyson have that highlight finish. those other fights meant near nothing.

In terms of who lost more from 91 to 96 I'd have to go with Tyson despite Holy having the bad performances and health issues. The fact is Holyfield was on a career resurgence, he found some decent for again in the mid 90s which became apparent after the Tyson saga. In 91 he may he been quicker and more active but I am not convinced he had the ring savvy to beat Tyson the way he did in 96. Its been mentioned here in this thread, the fact Evander likes a tear up, its debatable whether in 91 he would have went the measured holding Tyson and wearing him out. He was likely to fight with Tyson and exchange like he did against Bowe. Maybe a rematch he would adjust but would he be able to resist brawling with his nemesis the first fight?

 

This was part of the issue as well in terms of Tyson being mentally prepared, everyone expected Holyfield to come in wore torn but thats not what happened. The fact is he came in great form and surprised Tyson, who wasn't prepared as a fighter or mentally in 96. Again this is Tyson's fault but it doesn't change the fact he would have put up a better performance in 91.

I'm pretty sure Ruddock landed more on Tyson than Foreman did on Holyfield...

Ruddock was a young guy with more energy. he gets so underrated in the Tyson fights, its like Tyson beat some bum to a lot of people. I guarantee some of those attacks would have taken out most of the division in 91, Tyson just had a solid chin. people forget that these were really hard punches that actually hurt Tyson. Maybe even Holyfield would have had a tough time with Ruddock, he may have won but I'm pretty sure it would be a tough battle, considering the punishment Razor took. The guy was no walk over. you can bring Lewis up but it depends how you see it, fighters can age quick after wars like that.

its a strong point. I have to admit this is where my doubts creep in going with a Tyson win. Holyfield had that incredible resolve. If he got Tyson to the later part of the fight I would have to give him the edge, I could see him out lasting and out willing Mike, he is used to that adversity.

For Tyson it all hinges on not getting to that point, with a strong start, possibly hurting Holyfield he has the chance to either keep him hurt or end it in the mid rounds. Its a case of Tyson having too much for that resolve to get a foot hold, if he allows Holyfiled into the fight, especially at the start when he is meant to be dominant, he would be in trouble. I dont think it is a stretch either way, Holy could out last Tyson, Tyson could over power Holyfield. That's why I don't go with the Tyson loses every time theory people seem to get so attached to.

ok Tyson didnt get Ruddock out of there in the rematch, but its arguable he would have finished him in the first fight. I'm not saying that's a dead cert but its arguable, Razor was on the ropes, had taken big punches and if it wasn't stopped he would have faced another barrage. As for the rematch, did you see the state Ruddock was in afterwards? I think I would have chosen the KO. The man was destroyed, beaten down, and probably ruined as a fighter. A hell of a price to pay for not getting knocked out. He was just durable enough to stay in there, which happens.

you wont convince me Tyson was a dynamic fighter after prison. He was done after four rounds in most cases. He had a few if his old moves but there was no substance behind it, if he didn't KO the guy he got discouraged and melted down.

That's where Holyfields greatness comes out, he surprised everyone. On paper it looked like he was done but that wasn't the reality. The reality was that Holyfield had been in tough fights against elite opponents while Tyson was in prison, losing his fighting mentality and being broken down, the man was humiliated, in prison for a horrible crime, these things damage a persons mentality, he came out bitter and twisted, and it all came out eventually. Added to this when he made his comeback he was living in cloud cuckoo land if he felt he didn't need a decent trainer. It was all Tyson's way and it was a complete shambles once he faced a real challenge.

It doesn't mean much that Tyson looked good against those guys, with little resistance a power puncher can look great, and he did still have his power and some speed but he lost so much more. When I watch the 96 fight I just think about what Tyson could have done better and its a laundry list.

 

I don't think Mike's "energy levels" is the root cause here. He was largely ineffective for most of the fight.

No doubt, Holyfield was more sustained and effective in breaking Tyson down. I don't see any argument for Ruddock theoretically hurting him more.

I disagree as the Bruno combo is just as ferocious as anything from the Ruddock fights.

You are suggesting energy and snap can't be detected by the naked eye. In that case, how can you argue it's existence in the first place?

This is from Round 9. I don't believe energy is the reason it got blocked, at some point you have to credit Evander.

[url]https://gifs.com/gif/46-mike-tyson-evander-holyfield-1-AnVNwp[/url]

Here's a fast combo from Round 8 that got Evander's attention. Tyson had more effective moments than you remember.

[url]https://gifs.com/gif/46-mike-tyson-evander-holyfield-1-pg3ZQQ[/url]

I disagree. Throughout the fight, Tyson continued to fight while taking punches. These are late round examples:

Round 8: Tyson tries a left hook after taking an Evander combo.

[url]https://gifs.com/gif/46-mike-tyson-evander-holyfield-1-WnGP7x[/url]

Round 9: A hurt Tyson still exchanging with Evander.

[url]https://gifs.com/gif/46-mike-tyson-evander-holyfield-1-wj3008[/url]

Round 10: Tyson reacts to an uppercut with a double left hook.

[url]https://gifs.com/gif/46-mike-tyson-evander-holyfield-1-LgqZZX[/url]

How come? Selective memory. There are instances where Tyson sucked up Ruddock and Evander's attacks, and other instances where he did not in both fights.

Here Tyson is clearly hurt and actually retreats from Ruddock. He looks pretty discouraged to me.

[url]https://gifs.com/gif/mike-tyson-vs-razor-ruddock-i-ii-hd-wj30K1[/url]

 

It might be his best performance.