review of Tyson holyfield 1 and why tyson would have won in 1991(imo)

He was cautious in those early rounds because he was getting hurt with head and body shots.

 

Tyson's energy levels were not the root cause, which is the basis for my argument. His general mindset coupled with the fact he had been in prison added to this. Also to give Holyfield credit he rose to the occasion, you could see how amped up he was for the fight, he executed a superb game plan. This in combination to Tyson's own lack of preparation for a fight like this contributed to the loss, and how badly he performed.

you may not see an argument for Ruddock hurting Tyson more during the fight but there is one there. Obviously Holy hurt Tyson bad in the 10th but I am talking during the fight. the point is Ruddock buzzed Tyson with hard shots that had no effect on his resolve in 91, in 96 Holy hit him as early as round two and you could see the doubts setting in, the confused looks in round 6 "my god the guy is hitting me back". Against Ruddock he accepted the punishment and shook it off throughout, he was used to fighting and getting hit, he was more robust is my general point. Again how could this be otherwise, he was in the game in 91, by 96 he wasn't.

Against Bruno he had that last 20 punch combination, which I agree looked impressive. What Tyson did before that wasn't as great as some say when you examine the fight, he got hit a lot himself but just took it better than Frank, a few combinations he couldn't get off.

My point was that his combinations were more effective in general back in 91, they might have looked good against a man waiting to get knocked out but that doesn't mean they were as effective during a full fight. Most of his punches in the Bruno fight were single shots. He ended the fight quicker but I'd argue that his dispatching of Bruno in 89 was more brutal, because of the combinations and youthful energy he had. He got away with some mistakes because of this.

ok that's a fair point about the video comparisons. what I was trying to say is you wont get the full story showing a clip like that, its hand picked for one thing to suit an agenda, we can all do that. Try picking out videos of Tyson taking huge punches from Ruddock then willing him to try harder, this is the confidence he didn't have by 96, these punches were arguably harder than Evander's and Tyson's attitude was "hit me harder". thats the mindset that didn't exist after prison, his response to this attack would have been to bite of twist the guys arm because his confidence was shot.

those combinations had nothing in them, Holyfield was not bothered by them imo. In fact I remember an interview were Evander said he knew the fight was in his hands when a tired Tyson was throwing combinations with him late, he knew he could counter. Tyson was done in these late rounds, just plodding along with no little energy or plan of attack. I'd argue he would be a lot more live this late in 91, I'd again argue he took just as much punishment or at least close to in by round 8 against Ruddock and he was still very strong.

by these late rounds Tyson didn't really have any venom left, he was just fighting on instinct and responding to Holfield's attacks, even when at times it was best not to, as Holyfield said. He had no real confidence in his work and barely landed with these combinations, to me he looked tired and frustrated. but I do give Evander credit here, he was very effective getting his own shots off and not allowing Tyson to execute his. Remember its not all one way traffic with me, I know this could be a factor in 91, but to counter that I also know Tyson's freshness at 24 could be a element in negating this.

there is a difference between being hurt and being discouraged. The difference is how Tyson responded. He may have retreated against Ruddock after getting buzzed but I wouldn't say he was discouraged at all because he came straight back and eventually won the fight. To do that his mentality must have had no doubt, even if he was physically hurt. That's the difference in mentality here, and he knew Ruddock was a killer puncher. If buzzed after prison he panicked. again compare videos of Tyson hurt and his responses pre and post prison, not being sarcastic I'd be interested in seeing it. ( I know Douglas will come into the equation here)

I really don't get how you don't seem to take into account Tyson's mindset before and after prison, this has a huge baring even leaving out the physical side, do you really think he was as stable and disciplined after being in prison for **** after four years. Its there clear as day. When did Tyson bite someones ear off or try to quit out of fights pre prison? Its no excuse, Tyson showed he didn't have the ability to mount a comeback like Ali did, but again it doesn't change the fact he was better in 91.

Overall I think the 91 fight between these two is my all time "could have been" fantasy fight, it would have been total war whoever won. the hug fest in 96 didn't do it justice imo, Tyson just didnt put in the performance he would have as a fresher 24 year old and that's the bottom line for me.

 

I think he was showing Holyfield too much respect, so he was already out of his normal game of being aggressive at the start. He was mentally shot for that fight, as we saw...

 

Except he tried to knock Holyfield out with his first shot, Holyfield soon started bullying him in the ring and hurt him with a right hand in the second round and hurt him early with an uppercut to the body.

 

was talking about the rematch? I wouldn't say Tyson was trying to knock him out, think he knew by then it wouldn't be that easy. It was all stacked against Tyson, the massive edge Holyfield had in dominating him the first fight would have been a massive thing to overcome.

 

I'm talking about their first bout.

 

in that case yeah Tyson did try that didnt he, and realised quickly the Holyfield wasn't the pushover he expected.

 

The first fight is massively underrated IMO, Tyson gave his all but he was in with the superior fighter.

 

It wasnt a bad fight, I just think in 91 it would have been a lot better. I do find 96 fight fascinating to watch though, I re watch it occasionally. Tyson just thought he had it in the bag, watching Evander prove him wrong was interesting.

 

I don't follow.

There are visual indications he was hurt by both men's punches and ultimately Evander took him out.

This is a subjective projection, just no substance to this sort of argument. It's metaphysical.


You can state the same thing about this clip below. Look at the confused look on Tyson after he takes that left hand and has to back off, he's thinking, "oh my god, I wasn't expecting that, you can see the doubt setting in!" It's like a caption game.

https://gifs.com/gif/mike-tyson-vs-razor-ruddock-i-ii-hd-wj30K1

Now here's the big Round 2 moment you claim you say you can see "doubt setting in." I frankly don't see that. I see Tyson taking the hit and firing back. Maybe Tyson has doubts in the back of his mind, I wouldn't know. He looks determined to me if I may project.

https://gifs.com/gif/46-mike-tyson-evander-holyfield-1-GZl9D3

But wait, here's Tyson taking a hit and firing back against Ruddock, putting him on his ass.

https://gifs.com/gif/mike-tyson-vs-razor-ruddock-i-ii-hd-66E0LN


So what's really happening here? For starters it doesn't boil down to Tyson's theoretical resolve or lack there of. In both fights, there are instances where Tyson is indeed hurt and has to clinch or back off to reset. And other instances where Tyson takes the hit and fires back. He was more successful against Ruddock in this regard.

The difference is the opponent. After unloading a power shot, Ruddock often had a horrible habit of leaving himself wide open, he doesn't bring his gloves back, he doesn't tuck his chin, after he throws...land or miss, he's a big target.

Holyfield is just a greater infighter with superior awareness. Even after hitting Tyson and appearing to rock him, he's in position to defend himself against return fire.

Not, it's top notch stuff from top to bottom.

Most of his punches against Ruddock were single shots.

Than don't take a position that can easily be discredited by video evidence.

I posted a clip of the Ruddock knockdown from the first fight. "Willing to try harder" is a subjective projection of a man's inner thoughts. But there are instances against both Ruddock and Evander, where Tyson will take a shot and fire back. Lots of instances..that's Tyson's thing.

Tyson certainly fouled against Ruddock. In the first round of the first fight, he tried to deliberately attack him after the bell. And he deliberately hit him low in both fights a few times.

Yes, he certainly lost his marbles in the Holyfield rematch. He also did the "hit me harder" taunts in the 97 match too, which you seem to associate with resolve.

Evander was bothered by that combo because he didn't even try to tough it out or counter, he got the hell out of a dodge. Tyson clearly had torque on the punches despite their speed.

So now Tyson was just plodding along with little no energy or plan of attack, except for combinations, fighting on instinct, responding to attacks, and the occasional good right hand. If you ask me that's doing too much to just be plodding along.

That's hindsight. Everything Tyson did against Ruddock is going to get a positive spin because...he won the fight. You just aren't being consistent or fair here. Tyson retreating from Ruddock is resolve, Tyson fighting back against Evander is discouragement. And vice versa.

Physically he was in great shape. Mentally he was unraveling since 89 up until prison, he was acting more mature after prison until the ear biting incident. He wasn't talking about fornicating his opponents and what not.

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I object to "hug fest" It was a great fight with more exchanges than you are given it credit for.

 

Why do people just automatically assume only Tyson was better in 91 when it's as clear as day Holyfield was better in that period.

I'd have loved to have seen this fight but I know who my money woukd be on and it wouldn't be Tyson.

 

Holyfield "better" in that time frame . lol. Is that the reason he put in barely ok performances against Grandpa's Foreman or Holmes or getting almost stopped by coke fill in Cooper ? Even in the Bowe fight he never had the upper hand, he fought hard but was really never on top during the fight after the opening rounds.

Holyfield is very beat able, to assume that a prime, focused and properly trained Tyson cannot defeat him is absurd.

 

it goes both ways though, why do people always assume Holyfield was better in 91? its not clear at all, that's your opinion, its a theory that no one really knows a hundred percent, so why make that crystal ball assumption. its two schools thought and one will never convince the other, if they are extreme one way or another with this opinion. I take a more middle ground personally, I can see both arguments. I believe they could beat each other, not this so and so would always beat so and so.

 

Exactly. I posted these two videos and nobody wants to talk about it. 96 Tyson is put under a microscope and compared to an idealized version from 91. But nobody wants to talk about how much Holyfield lost between Cooper and Czyz.

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And 96 Holyfield put on a god awful performance against Czyz and was knocked out by Bowe, but you want to argue he was better then? Why bother to even type over simplified sensationalist garbage like this. We aren't casuals. "Ok" "Grandpa" "Coke Fill" "almost stopped"

I love how this makes absolutely no sense. You are doing the Tyson supporters a big favor with this post.

So you believe Tyson was prime for Douglas?