REVISED: Under 185lb Tournament, FINALS # 1 Rocky Marciano vs # 2 Jack Dempsey

:hi:

Mc you just answered your own observation that " his [Dempsey] reputation as a fighter has waned of late" !The answer why is that you
[with all due respect], couldn't care at all, what the observations of boxing people who watched Dempsey,and held him in such high esteem ,thought about the matchup between Jack and Rocky at their bests. Their opinion was almost unanimous in choosing Dempsey over Marciano H2H. But
this doesn't matter to you at all. I ,to give an analology accept the opinions of historians who called Daniel Webster, the greatest orator
in American history,even though I never heard him speak. My ego doesn't get the best of me. A poor analogy maybe, but appropriate nevertheless.
And in my heart of hearts I can't see the slow starting,wild swinging Marciano, surviving a MUCH faster deadly puncher than Dempsey in close
quarters. Dempsey at his best was a beast in close combat ! Picture a much larger version of Roberto Duran in close quarters against a wild swinging LW.
TIMBER...:hi:

 

Some fighters just go out of fashion.
Dempsey went out of fashion to many in the boxing magazine scene quite recently (he was ranked number 4 in RING magazines all-time HW rankings in 1987, I remember. And they based those lists on scores out of 10 in 10 different categories.)
Dempsey has stayed out of fashion in this internet scene, with its high volume of info and opinion. But the consensus on these things sways rather easily.

If that's true then they are re-dressing some former mistakes which were very likely at least partly originated from such prejudices. Or if not, it has been common in many such cases.

When "good history" is done on Dempsey, he'll be rated highly again. :good

 

While I respect the views of contemporary experts in regard to Dempsey, I just can't see Marciano getting blown out early by someone under 200 lbs, and if it happened it would likely be an anomaly due to statistical variance. The ultimate questions in every Marciano fight are: 1) Can his opponent survive 15 rounds? and 2) Will they be up on points if they do? Other than the first Walcott, where JJW was ahead in scoring before getting knocked out, who else did a prime Marciano (1951- 1955) come close to losing to via points? I concede the hand speed and foot speed advantage, but Dempsey, fast hands or not, is going to get hit. Repeatedly. And in a war of attrition my money is on the block of granite from Brockton. He's not going to back up. He's not going to stop throwing punches with frightening power that will hurt Dempsey wherever they land. This is not to say that in ten fights between them Marciano wins every time. But more often than not, I would expect him to win, and probably via late stoppage.

Note: Comparisons of Dempsey to Duran are valid in regard to his frenzied aggression and punching power in the ring, but the comparison ends there. Duran's skill set is leagues ahead of Dempsey. IMO if a scaled up version of Duran at 190lb was Marciano's opponent, this thread would be a lot shorter.

 

Well, I guess the new generation that is on this site favor Rocky. If we could same how bring back the old-timers and have them vote, it would still be Dempsey. Years from now, Rocky will be on the receiving end of some of the same things that are said about Dempsey, then you will know what were talking about.

I know experts aren't the only thing we should go by, But in mostly anything else we do, we always go to the people that know.

I respect everybody's opinion, But when I rate someone, I still have to take into account on what the real experts had to say.

 

I don't know nearly as much as you guys do, but I was interested in the "Dempsey will blow out Marciano inside of 3 argument" and so went over to boxrec to add up the early round ko totals:

For Dempsey, I didn't count the Darcy fight as I think this fight was an exhibition, regardless of what some local boxing politicians said and Jack wasn't trying for a ko. This is in Dempsey's interest as he did not knock out Darcy.

So Jack has 82 total fights.

ko's in first round--24

Ko's in second round--6

ko's in third round--6

ko's in fourth round--5

Percentage totals

ko's in one round--24 (29%)

ko's in rounds 1 or 2--30 (37%)

ko's in rounds 1 to 3--36 (44%)

ko's in rounds 1 to 4--41 (50%)

Total ko's--50 in 82 bouts (61%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rocky had 49 fights

ko's in first round--11

ko's in second round--7

ko's in third round--8

ko's in fourth round--2

Percentage totals

ko's in one round--11 (22 %)

ko's in 1 or 2 rounds--18 (37%)

ko's in 1 to 3 rounds--26 (53%)

ko's in 1 to 4 rounds--28 (57%)

Total ko's--43 in 49 bouts (88%)

Dempsey had a great many first round ko's, but Marciano is not that far behind. He catches Dempsey at 2 rounds, and it was actually harder to go three or four rounds with Marciano than it was with Dempsey.

 

I thought this thread was who would win H2H Marciano or Dempsey ? I mentioned the reason his legacy has diminished was because of you and other posters, who ignore the opinions of observers who saw Dempsey and Marciano at their bests. I mention you not to disrepect you, but you
REPRESENT the point of view that the contemporary's of Dempsey and Marciano's opinions, somehow carry little or NO weight with today's
more KNOWLEDGABLE boxing afficionados. I,on the other hand believe fervently that the great writers and boxing experts of the 1950s,seeing both Dempsey and Marciano [champion then],were better able to judge the outcome of that fantasy,than today's ESB experts...And I HAVE many astute boxing posters on ESB,to share my sentiments...Some of the posters think boxing started with television,so I place very little credence on a poll of 45 or so posters today. I stick to my guns, and
I respect YOUR posts and observations on boxing, but I go along with the 1950 writers who almost unanimously chose Dempsey over the much slower and wilder punching Marciano. Tonight I shall try to attempt to contact Ray Arcel at a seance, and relate to the ESB his thoughts...But til then,let us agree to disagree :good

 

You know yourself what people say about Rocky now. I talk to many boxing historians and most of them say that Rocky fought old man or guys that were passed there prime. Yes I know it's not his fault that guys like Liston, Holmes, prime Louis, Ali. Foreman, etc., weren't around but this is what most of them say now.

Yes, Dempsey didn't fight Wills, but that was the times back then, again, no fault of Dempsey, as he signed to met him on two different times, but it never came off.

 

hh, your correct fact that Dempsey did sign to fight Harry Wills,will not register on a person who repeats the tired mantra,that Dempsey did not sign..It galls me to hear this B.S. lie, when this thread is about who" would win between Marciano and Dempsey ".? But this posters clinical hatred of Dempsey, knows no bounds. I respect McGrain for his convictions highly,no
ludicrous misfacts irrelevant to the thread at hand...:good

 

What is the consensus on the first meeting between Marciano and Lastarza? Info' appreciated gentlemen.

 

my thoughts on the outcome of the tournament:

This content is protected