Revisiting Ali-Liston 1

I used to think that but watch it a few times...fight is closer then it looks.

 

Liston definitely landed some significant punches, and yeah I mean before the liniment scare. Ali was more dominant against Williams and London for sure, no comparision.

It was a stellar performance, but still very much a competitive fight. Theres's nobody else at the time who could have beaten Liston...no way imo.

 

LOL! It was a bit over-gushing, but let's maybe give the new guy a chance, my good friend

 

Watching this fight the thing that strikes me is Liston isn't in condition to defend the championship. He was perhaps fit to go a hard 3 rounds or so. Sonny hadnt been active he was living in Vegas. He ripping and running with Davey Pearl.
None of that is Ali's fault. Ali may have outboxed Sonny at his best. Liston IMO would have made it a much better fignt.

 

It has been said that too much of that causes hairy palms, no need to break out the Rogaine.

 

Joking too, welcome to the Classic Forum, we will be glad to assist in any way with boxing.

 

I love watching this one

 

I really believe that Sonny Liston was so overconfident after watching Muhammad Ali get floored by Sonny Banks in 1962 and Henry Cooper in 1963. Sonny did not train, believing Ali was just a publicity gimmick. Liston spent his time with an extramarital affair with a younger female. Also having the title did not bring Sonny any self gratification, no one was happy that he was the reigning champion. He also spent time lifting weights ( a large bottle of liquor) often. The local police departments were busy finding reasons to arrest him, he was driving too slow, etc. Remember Sonny put a policeman upside down in a dumpster in 1957, and police departments in various jurisdictions are like a band of brothers so to speak. Maybe the underworld wanted to cash in on a big score, a certain round for Ali to be stopped, it did not happen as arranged. Ali was well prepared, and for about a solid year played with Liston's head, Ali lived there rent free. Sonny said the fight would end early, just like his title win over Floyd Patterson in 1962 Also the explosive weigh in the morning of the fight, Liston believed Ali was frightened. Ali used all of his gifts, Footwork, speed, reflexes, stamina, and enormous confidence.

 

Yes, I recall seeing multiple reports and a few clips indicating Liston did not take Ali serious at all. Even at the weigh in I remember him holding up two fingers stone faced and almost bored with Ali's antics and loud mouth. The training camps were very lackadaisical and not remotely as intense as his fights leading up to the title.

And you're 100% right about people not being happy that Liston had the belt. Both the civil rights movement and white America were very annoyed with Patterson that he even gave him a shot, then got even more annoyed that the big scary black guy with underworld connections won. He probably figured he'd just shut Ali's mouth for good, then get back to drinking and gambling. He had pretty much cleared out the division and only guys like Terrell or Bonavena would have lasted more than 5 rounds and neither were thought of as major threats to his reign. It would be nearly a decade before Frazier or Foreman were both good enough and ranked high enough to pose a threat.

Of course this cannot be held against Ali, a champion is supposed to always be in shape and take every opponent seriously.

 

It's blatantly obvious Liston wasn't in tip top condition isn't it. There's more than enough anecdotes and the like and we have the footage.

Thinking Liston would have done notably better is certainly a fair opinion as is thinking Ali still would have been a nightmare for him. You can take either side and put forward a very solid case.

 

Whatever Liston's take was, I think Ali had completely psyched himself out against him. He proved time and time again to be a genius at revving himself up...let's not forget how outright INDIGNANT he was that anyone would pick George Foreman over him...over HIM! Same with Frazier, though the ring rust (not to mention Joe's do or die, murderous performance) undid him in the latter.

Ali would get this LOOK on his face...check out when Jerry Lewis kind of dumped on him on his show. That look...steely determination, keeping out all outside opinions. He doesn't know what they're talking about, THEY sure as hell don't know what they're talking about.

Holmes said one time before the Foreman fight Ali was sitting in the backset of his car and, out of the silence, out of nowhere, he started saying "I'm the Greatest. Ain't nobody gonna stop me. George Foreman can't hit what he can't see, you must be crazy!". I guess Larry was wondering if he was actually talking to him when he looked in the rearview mirror and decided against it.

"Didn't you HEAR me? I said I'm the Greatest! I'll show ALL of you!"

 

Ali was still a kid then. He had belief in himself generally but he was also scared of Liston. Somny was the Boogie Man..Having that little bit of fear helps a guy fight better. Your radar is up, once some punches start flying then its just another fight. It's before the fight that would be hardest I would imagine. 0

 

Also remember before Sonny Liston fought Floyd Patterson in Sept 1962, Floyd was summoned to the White House by President Kennedy, he told Floyd that he better win, the youth of America needed a positive role model. The President's brother, Robert F. Kennedy, the U.S. Attorney General, had declared war against the underworld, deported many of them. And lastly, Cus D Amato did not want Patterson in the ring with Sonny. Floyd was in danger of being stripped of his title, his last title defense was against Tom Mc Neeley on Dec 4 1961. It was not like today, you had to defend your title every 6 months or else get stripped of your title.

 

Yes he had one of the greatest mindsets ever. Negative press and expectation just geared him up.