Revisiting Ali-Liston 1

I'm wondering...if we take away the boo-boo arm factor....
But then, Liston didn't look so good in the face after that round.

Oh well, I guess the time has passed for us to ever know for sure.

 

Clay looked better but managed to lose 3 rounds on my card. It doesn't matter because Liston was never going 15 rounds that day anyway. If we look at Ali/Clay's whole career we will probably find loads of fights where he conceded rounds or took time to figure his opponents out enough to go ahead on the scoring. Ali was a very clever ring general.

 

Since you seemed to ask this twice in succession, I will clarify.
Liston was under serious pressure in the 3rd, he was stunned and cut by Clay, and probably very surprised by the power of Clay's punches (the consensus on Clay at the time was that he didn't hit hard enough to have an effect on Liston).
He fought back hard because he was under pressure and in danger of being stopped if he didn't. There's nothing there that proves he was trying hard to stop Clay though, he was fighting, he was defending himself. it's a fight in there.
This is not inconsistent with it being a fix where the round, or range of rounds have been selected. Liston did what he did and it ultimately it was unsatisfactory.

This is speculation, whichever way you see it.
The fact is, no one was KO'd in the 3rd.
We know what happened in the fight. Liston quit after the 6th. The 3rd round proves nothing either way. It was a good round though. especially for Clay.

 

Not a chance the first fight was a fix.

Going into the fight Clay was thought to be fragile and not exactly durable to be kind. He'd been knocked silly by a single left hook against Cooper and Liston had the mother of all left hooks.

Despite this Liston landed quite a few bombs including big left hooks and with what was thought/known of Clay going into the fight any one of these could have easily been a fight concluder.

There's also the conundrum of the Ali's eye trouble. To believe the fight was a fix you'd have to be 100% convinced this was entirely an accident. Clay almost quit! On top of this you have Liston chasing him about swinging for the rafters with left hooks and landing some bombs. again these were punches that could have ended Clay at any point. It doesn't add up in any way, shape or form.

On top of this one can definitely be more convincing than quitting. Clay had Liston in a big of genuine trouble prior and Liston could have rode that pony home if he wanted to.

3-3 is a fair scorecard and a great many share it. 4-2 is also fine.

 

Liston landed some solid scoring shots but wasn't "landing bombs".

Also, I doubt that "one can definitely be more convincing than quitting". How would you suggest he throw the fight then?

 

Many of the full force punches he threw were just missing through Clay's extraordinary reflexes. It's just not realistic that Liston knew this would happen.

And no, I haven't said "Liston landed very very little of consequence in the whole fight". I said that he landed few clean punches in rd 3 and missed most of his power punches. An uppercut in close was the best punch in that one. And in the 4th he landed that right-left, which were good punches. I don't think we've even discussed what he landed in the other rounds.

For example, the left hook in rd 2 that this thread starts with is a very hard punch and could have changed the outcome of the fight against a chinnier fighter. Liston also landed that right-left in the 4th, several hard punches in the 5th, of course, and a decent right in rd 6 from memory. He also landed some punches in rd 1, even if none really sticks out in my memory right now.

 

Forget the commentary, or lack thereof. Have a really good look at the whole round and you will see some serious leather at times. Liston definitely landed some big punches. Some were narrowly avoided as well.

Surely ending up on the floor is better? He was out of shape and tiring and had already been in decent trouble. As i said he could have rode that sort of scenario to the floor.

 

Several of the punches that just missed could have resultated in a KO if they landed.

And some of the punches Liston landed in the second and fifth in fact could have stopped a chinnier fighter. And don't forget that Ali's chin was in as much question as his power coming into the fight.

Liston is trying to win. It's clearly obvious for anyone with an non-biased view.

He had an injured shoulder and was likely going to get KO'd as Clay had predicted, so he quit. Nothing strange in that. He reiterated even clearer imo in the rematch that he was a quitter. That's all she wrote, really.

 

Yeah, they did that it the rematch. Did you find it convincing?

 

Some of the punches were spectacular but it's not easy to tell whether they were "full force" or not. It's hard to say if a fighter is pulling his punches.
His punches looked quite sluggish throughout the fight. He was never the snappiest puncher but against Clay he looked to be pushing them. Probably was injured anyway.

 

Liston quit and needed to make the excuse of an injured shoulder (could be true, regardless of whether the fight was legit or not).
He quit, unexpectedly.
Quitting with a few cuts and an alleged injured shoulder (which he's been using throughout anyway) is not the clear cut "obvious" "TRYING TO WIN" that you are saying it is.

What exactly is the bias view you think I hold ?
I find Liston's performance somewhat unsatisfactory.
I'm natural sceptical and cynical about the whole business of professional boxing anyway, and Liston was a bad gambler and associating with a notorious Ash Resnick at the time. So that doesn't help matters.

A fixed fight can look quite good. That's what a lot of boxing fans seem not to understand. If all fixes looked obviously fixed throughout the entire duration, we'd have a lot less to worry about.

 

All the quits I know of comes after the fighter has tried to win. For example, I don't believe that Rigo-Loma was fixed just because he quit with a swollen knuckle. He felt that he couldn't win and that continuing would just mean unnecessary punishment and a probably stoppage any way. I don't see this one any differently.

 

That's fair enough. But I see it differently. And many share my view today, and did at the time. To some of us, Liston's performance is unsatisfactory.
I have no opinion on Rigondeaux-Lomachenko. I watched the fight once. Rigondeaux's a bantamweight so I'd have trouble comparing his decision to Liston's, a wrecking ball of a heavyweight.

I'm sure every quit job can be described the way you do. Anyone can get in a ring and throw a few punches and then quit and say "I tried to win but then I decided I couldn't win, so I quit". I mean, every quit job and most dives can be interpreted that way too, of course.
It's fair enough but I remain more sceptical.

 

I think the main reason that Ali-Liston is seen as a fix but not for example Loma-Rigo is because bias towards the fighters, I think. It's done by those that have more problem admitting that Ali bested Liston than that Loma bested Rigo imo.

Liston had failed to KO an Ali that couldn't see and was dominated in the following round. The writing was on the wall. It looked very likely that he was going to be KO'd just as Ali had predicted, which likely Liston couldn't stomach. Being humiliated like that by someone who he probably hadn't even respected going into the fight. So he quit. How big a part his injury played is hard to say, but the decision does not seem far fetched at all to me.

I'll leave it at that.

 

I don't know. I can only speak for myself. I won't give Liston a pass just because Ali was great.
It's irrelevant to me that Ali was great and deserves the win.

Liston's performance was questionable. Liston's character was questionable. Liston's connections were questionable.
Regardless of how great Clay/Ali was.

Guillermo Rigondeaux is a different subject entirely. I am not qualified to speak on him.