Rex Layne vs Luis Firpo

SuzieQ,
Layne was good at his best.
But so was Firpo.
We can roll out a load of old-timer quotes about how menacing and a force of nature Firpo was too, but you'd be the first to scoff at them.

Also, Firpo had a short prime too. He was rushed into the Dempsey fight and that defeat and fame and lifestyle took the edge of him.

 

"Layne also LOST to more nobodies than Firpo did."

I think this point should be disputed.

The men who beat Layne were mostly rated fighters. Here they are with their highest ratings in Ring's yearly ratings.

Dave Whitfield--#7 lightheavy
Rocky Marciano--heavy champ
Ezzard Charles--heavy champ
Willie James
Harry Matthews--#1 lightheavy contender
Roland LaStarza--#1 heavy contender
Ezzard Charles--heavy champ
Earl Walls--#5 heavy contender
Earl Walls--#5 heavy contender
Hurricane Jackson--#1 heavy contender
Bob Baker--#2 heavy contender
Bob Baker--#2 heavy contender
Bab Baker--#2 heavy contender
Hurricane Jackson--#1 heavy contender
Willie Pastrano--light heavy champ
Heinz Neuhaus--#6 heavy contender
Hans Friedrich

Friedrich was a journeyman who did manage some wins over fringe contenders (Cavicchi and Besmanoff) and went the distance with Johansson. James was a prospect who faded fast after killing Olympic champion Ed Sanders in the ring.

The worst fighter to defeat either man was Dave Mills, who beat Firpo.

*Layne stacks up against much tougher competition. Firpo didn't fight anyone of note until 1923, and only had a couple of meaningful fights after 1924.

 

"old-timer quotes"

Here is one from AJ Liebling about watching Firpo, Willard, Floyd Johnson, and Jack McAuliffe fight in 1923 and comparing them to Archie Moore.

"Firpo was so crude that Marciano would be a fancy dan in comparision. He could hit with only one hand-his right-he hadn't the faintest idea of what to do in close, and he never cared much for the business anyway."

Later

"I reflected with satisfaction that old Archie Moore would have whipped all four principals on that card within fifteen rounds, and that while Dempsey may have been a great champion, he had less to beat than Marciano. I felt the satisfaction because it proved that the world isn't going backward, if you can just stay young enough to remember what it was really like when you were really young."

 

Well, with the amount of success Firpo managed with his severe lack of skills and finesse suggests he must have possessed an extreme effective awkwardness AND tremendous raw power.

(BTW, nothing would make Layne seem like Willie Pep).

Your problem SuzieQ is you can't seem to pick one fighter over another, or favour an era against another, without ridiculously exaggerating the prowess of one, and downright insulting and mocking the other.

I happen to think Firpo and Layne were both good, but nowhere near great. And they both lacked finesse, but made up for that in other areas. That's heavyweight boxing.

 

What every one thinks of the "fadedness" of the Wills that fought Firpo versus that of the Walcott and Charles that fought Layne, it misses one point.

Off everything I have read, Wills dominated Firpo, although the fight was dull. Layne defeated Walcott cleanly and edged Charles.

 

So Floyd Patterson or Ingo beat Joe Louis ? World moving forward , of course ... like every other quote, has selective merit ..

 

The statement proves nothing because there is no proof of how "shot" Wills was as there was no film ... all we do know is that Firpo can in flabby as hell opposed to the condition he was in for the Dempsey bout. I've never seen the Layne/Walcott fight but if he cleanly defeated Walcott then Joe was either having a very off night, was more faded than I thought or simply not that great because Layne was a very average fighter.

 

There's no real gulf in class between Layne and Firpo, that's the point.
I used the term "nobodies" fairly loosely, meaning fighters that were mediocre contenders at best, or largely historically irrelevant.

Arguing the toss over whether Dave Mills was better than Hans Friedrich is not a road I want to go down.
(* Interesting fact though : I believe Dave Mills - a black fighter whose record probably only survives in fragments - was the uncle of Eddie Machen, and his first trainer and manager).
The record books do tend to show that Mills and Firpo fought 3 times, with Firpo winning two of those meetings by 1st round KO.

 

I've read Leibling's sweet science too, and the general point he is making here is valid and probably true. :good

I can't remember Layne being mentioned though. But I have no problem with anyone saying Archie Moore was better than Luis Firpo and an ancient Jess Willard.

 

"There's no real gulf in class between Layne and Firpo"

I would agree. I give the Layne the nod in a historical list as I just think his wins are more impressive.

In this fight, I give Layne the slight edge.

 

Couldn't agree more but Archie is a completely different match up for Firpo than Layne ..