Richard John Hatton, MBE - has enough time passed to fairly rate "The Hitman"?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, May 3, 2019.



  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    Were do we place Ricky in historical perspective, now that his career is long done & dusted (officially 6½ years now since his last climb between the ropes, getting kayoed on a body shot by Vyacheslav Senchenko - but really yesterday, May 2nd, was the one-decade anniversary of his original dozen-year professional campaign drawing to a close with a single quick, savage left cross from Pac-Man) and some of the simmering biases -pro and con - have been given a cooling off period?

    His final mark was 45-3 (32). You can make the argument to charitably toss out the Senchenko result, as it came on the heels of an ill-advised return after three years' worth of depression through most of which Ricky binged on enough coke & booze to make Keith Richards blush, and I've never seen anyone claim the Ukrainian would have stood a chance of defeating a pre-2009 version of Hatton. By that some token, however, if we're rectifying mistakes, it would be an inch gained but an inch lost all the same - as he did have at least one decision widely considered to be a robbery on his ledger, over Luis Collazo in his "welterweight debut". So with those canceling one another out, he's left with the same record as stated - with his best victories being over slightly over-the-hill Tszyu, Paulie Malignaggi, Juan Urango, prime Giuseppe Lauri by KO, Eamon Magee, Carlos Maussa, Ben Tackie, Vince Phillips, Jon Thaxton, Ray Oliveira, Michael Stewart, Juan Lazcano, Carlos Vilches, Stunning Stephen Smith, and the more-than-slightly over-the-hill Tony Pep, JLC & Freddie Pendleton.

    That is seventeen victories over names you'd have probably at least heard of if you watched a lot of international turn-of-the-century boxing (especially if the UK was a particular area of focus)/I'd heard of personally and knew well enough to contextualize, in any event. Does it compare with the best seventeen victories of, say, all time Great and near-contemporary Marco Antonio Barrera? Let's see: https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/the-marco-antonio-barrera-super-thread.514025/ ...aaaaaaand, hell no, to be clear, Hatton's résumé doesn't amount to even a drop in the bucket of MAB's. That's an unfairly high standard, though, obviously. Now that his rabid, perennially "WALKING IN A HATTON WONDERLAND" screeching fan base has quieted down, there is less call to squash their hyperbolic elevations of him to a mythic status on which his abilities didn't ever quite deliver. Nobody in 2019, as near as I can tell, is thrusting him up into the pantheon alongside the likes of MAB, so there's less need to judge him as harshly as in the aughts, when he was still active, with fans doing him the disservice of rating him in the stratosphere where his wings quickly burnt up like poor Icarus'.

    A hardcore apologist might point out that he didn't lose until he was on the slide, as men of his chosen style tend not to have lengthy primes and rather have a quick-burning fuse which may well have already begun to sputter out when he achieved immortality against Tszyu - and thus excusing all three of his knockout losses as coming when he was "past it". A harsh critic, on the other hand, would dismiss the upset over Tszyu as being a somewhat overrated triumph (else marred by favorable officiating) and stylistically a stroke of fortunate matchmaking for Ricky...and could posit that otherwise Hatton fought naught but C+ to straight B range opponents for most of his run, and then lost twice, by no coincidence, in his only real pair of steps up against elites (much like what is now being claimed by Golovkin haters, except with them going a step further and imaging the Jacobs and both Canelo fights as three losses).

    He certainly was capable of being in some exciting fights - but it was no guarantee, and was highly conditional on a cooperative dance partner. In his nick he boasted a fantastic engine, some very nice - one might even say top-flight - infighting and particularly body-punching for a white boy (or for a non-Latino, period) and decent hand speed...but was every bit as notorious a clincher as heavyweights John Ruiz or Wladimir Klitschko, and was forever wide open to counter uppercuts, and had some crêpe-papery skin. Much as with his résumé, there was both good and bad to be found in his fights and their entertainment value -- and yet in his pomp you could not intercept a single objective word above the din of the Mancunian's loyal contingent saying he was the best watch in the sport, and nitpicking detractors calling him among the worst.

    How then, does "Fatton" squeeze into the all-time picture at 140lbs? I think it most equitable to not judge him at welter, as he never truly belonged there (and wouldn't have toed outside his lane were it not for his damned lifelong case of the munchies). WBA Super, IBFx2, and lineal champion + BBBofC and the lightly-regarded world titles of pretender organizations IBO and WBU (the pursuit & retention of which probably distracted him from & cost him the chance to become the Lonsdale outright champ). Decent accolades. By no means those of a divisional GOAT, or top 5 - but is he top 15? BoxRec.com places him #8, just behind Cervantes.

    What say you lot?
     
  2. CST80

    CST80 Liminal Space Autochthon Staff Member

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    His best wins are a somewhat shot shell of Kostya Tszyu and a bull**** corner stoppage over Paulie, he should have lost to Collazo. He was overrated as hell, I personally never cared for Hatton, never got the hype and still don't. :roto2nuse:
     
  3. 305th

    305th Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I say I will leave the serious discussion of his place in the pantheon or not to more learned students of the sport, (cop-out accepted), but if you aren't getting paid handsomely to write about boxing IB, you truly deserve to be.
     
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  4. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hatton should be remembered as a good fighter, but nothing more. He had his strengths, but he was far too flawed to be remembered as more than what he was.

    I certainly would not consider him one of the junior welterweight greats. He was simply a good fighter who got the better of washed up versions of Tszyu and Castillo.

    Paulie is the only good fighter that Hatton beat in their primes.
     
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  5. MVC!

    MVC! The Best Ever Full Member

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    A hall of famer, borderline atg.
     
  6. MVC!

    MVC! The Best Ever Full Member

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    A hall of famer, borderline atg.
     
  7. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    Even the Paulie win IMO has a pretty big asterisk over it. Buddy McGirt takes a lot of undeserved flack and is hardly as bad a trainer as some claim, but he did absolutely ruin Malignaggi's style and took him completely off-rails in his career. Once he dumped Buddy, the ship quickly righted itself. Now, would Hatton still have just had Malignaggi's number regardless of who the chief second was? Maybe. Unknowable. But the severity of the utter thrashing Paulie took at Ricky's hands seemed to me, and still do today, a direct result of the bad advice, wrongheaded machinations and stylistic tinkering of McGirt.
     
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  8. The Funny Man 7

    The Funny Man 7 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Have passions surrounding Hatton subsided? I think so, or at least they have in my case, and I should know. I hated Ricky Hatton with an almost pathological fury from 2005 through the proper ending of his career (leaving out the shambolic comeback). You see...Kostya Tszyu was my favorite fighter (three way tied with Morales and JMM) when Ricky made him quit on his stool. I was in my mid-teens, an age where irrational grudges are a normal part of everyday life. The stupidity of my adolescent self was worsened by the fact that he made one of my heroes surrender under embarrassing, and frankly inexplicable circumstances (look, Kostya, no one wants to see another Gerald McClellan situation, but just empty the guns for 3 minutes and lose by a 117-111ish decision!).

    I guess what I'm saying is that I really hated Ricky Hatton. I cringe when I recall this, but I even greeted the humiliating revelations of his substances abuse with glee. But then, some time later when he launched his comeback, my own fortunes had reversed, with a major health scare of my own. I was on radiation treatments for an overactive thyroid, more or less fighting for my life. That experience taught me a lot about empathy, and I was sad to see my old antagonist capsized, knowing the depths of depression he'd had to overcome to make it to the ring again.

    The weird thing is, is that it seems like the pro-Hatton crowd has totally vanished, while the Hatton skeptics remain. I remember there was a time when Ring/KO (idk which) rated him a 'Sure Shot' future IBHOFer. Maybe he'll get in eventually. Just not yet.

    Looking back I rate him highly, but that's because I look at it glass half full. I remember that Carlos Maussa and Juan Urango were both regarded as legit threats, even if subsequent losses knocked a lot of the bloom off of Hatton's wins over those two. JLC was an even bigger win, given JLC's stellar title reign at 135, and the mesmirizing rivalry with Chico Corrales. The warning signs of JLC's demise were evident when he looked bony and burnt out against Reyes and Ngoudjo, but still...Ricky gets my respect for putting 'El Temible' away with a left hook to the gut that presaged Roose Bolton's TKO (and then some) over Rob Stark
     
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  9. The Funny Man 7

    The Funny Man 7 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I meant to include this in my previous post: good synopsis IB. Ricky also had enough good wins in his pre-title career that he was an obvious threat to Tzsyu, even if most boxing journalists laughed him off as being over-protected. The best evidence was when he dished out a comprehensive beating on the still viable Ben Tackie, pounding the indestructable Tackie's flanks with a serious assault to the ribs. And after that he tortured the only slightly less indestructable 'Sucra' Oliveira, breaking his eardrums and forcing a stoppage in the 10th.

    Anyone who didn't think Ricky had a chance against Tszyu was not paying attention.

    As IB said, Ricky blatantly lost ambition after the title win, sharply dipping after the unification bout with Maussa. That makes me wonder if the biggest missed opportunity for Ricky was bouts that didn't materialize before winning the title. There were interesting opponents he never crossed paths with because of Warren's caution: Sharmba Mitchell, Vivian Harris, Junior Witter, young Miguel Cotto, Oktay Urkal.

    Wins over two or three of those guys would round out a slam dunk IBHOF resume, at least I think so.
     
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  10. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Ultimately a great talent wasted on partying. Not a new story in the sport. He could have done a lot more. He had a very high ceiling. His fight with May would have been massively more competitive without Cortez's meddling.
     
  11. kirk

    kirk l l l Staff Member

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    Nice post.

    At his absolute best I actually rate him fairly highly head to head at 140.
     
  12. destruction

    destruction Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hatton has to be known for the massive amount of support that he had, and his ability to attract big crowds in the MEN arena and in general.

    As a boxer he is known for his vicious body punching. His win win over Tszyu was unexpected after 38 fights against WBO/WBU opposition. He is also well known for face first collapsing into that ring post against Mayweather, because he was prepared to go out on his shield to try and beat him.

    Hatton will definitely go down as a great because unlike many others who reached world level, he faced the best and went out on his shield trying to beat the best.

    Unfortunately By the time he faced Pac-Man it was clear his boozing exploits had caught up with him, and that retirement was the sensible option.
     
  13. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    LMAO!
     
  14. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What great is Hatton beating at 140???

    I'd love a good laugh.
     
  15. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If Ricky Hatton is a "great" then the standards of being a "great fighter" are lower than ever.