The board seems split on Rickson. He had an almighty rep with BJJ and was a trained striker as well. His reputation with BJJ in the 80s is beyond question although it is a bit mythical in that it seems to good to be true (kinda like Loma and his amateur record). The obvious criticisim is that whilst he dominated everyone he ever competed with, he didn't face a high calibre of opposition in MMA. How does he do against the following opposition in 3x5 minute rounds Rich Franklin Dan Henderson Frank Shamrock Paulo Filho Murilo Bustamante Evan Tanner Anderson Silva
L-Rich Franklin UD. Franklin was never submitted in his MMA career and held his own with a few legends. Franklin loss mostly against superior strikers, which Rickson is not. L-Dan Henderson TKO- If fighting in a no time limit fight where Rickson only has to close the distance one or two times, Henderson would be more beatable. In a modern MMA rules fight, there would be too many separations, Henderson would be too difficult to take down and Rickson's high chin would get caught on one of his attempts to get the clinch. W-Frank Shamrock, Submission. A smaller Renzo was dominating Frank on the ground before being struck by an illegal knee to the back of the head. Rickson, bigger and better than Renzo, would eat him alive. W-Paulo Fihlo, submission. "I have trained with the toughest guys formed by Carlson Gracie. They were all great and I for sure don’t want to diminish anybody, but I have to say that no one ever did to me what Rickson Gracie has done during training these last days." ”I have no doubt that Rickson Gracie is the best ground fighter of all time. I bet on him against any athlete of today.” That is what Filho had to say about Rickson after training with him. L-Murilo Bustamante UD, maybe tko. Bustamante was too good with his hands. Would easily outwork Rickson on way to decision. May catch Rickson for the tko if Rickson is forced to close the distance repeatedly. W-Evan Tanner Sub. Catches Tanner's arm from guard, while Tanner attempts to ground and pound. L-Anderson Sila tko. Would be forced to close distance too many times against that speed.
Franklin never being submitted had more to do with him not fighting many good submission grapplers rather than him having a stellar sub defense. He also wasn't that hard to take down. I could easily see Rickson putting him on his back and strangling him. I agree with your other picks though.
Franklin never really fought any grapplers as they'd left for pride so I'm not sure just how good his defence was. Bustamante is a surprising pick for me. He came over as a BJJ expert who was a competent striker. If anyone this is probably the easiest pick to make. Filho statement is very complimentary but what happens in the gym and what happens in a real fight are often different. Shamrock Vs Gracie was about 10 years after his best.
Rickson is not a wrestler, and does not take people down the same way a wrestler does. He closes the distance, gets the clinch and gets in a position to where his opponent can do minimal damage striking. Then looks for ways to get behind his opponent or get the fight to the ground. It's very effective in a fight where you don't get separated if the clinch is lasting longer than the referee would like. Rickson is not going to outwork Franklin on his feet and it isn't likely that he gets him to the ground with loads of time left in a round. If he gets Franklin down, Franklin is a BJJ black belt and he gets back to his feet if he makes it to the end of the round. Filho is not a wrestler that can control the fight long enough to ride out the clock, nor is he a striker with exceptional take down defense. He is a BJJ fighter and fights accordingly. If BJJ is your game, and you're facing someone with superior Jiu Jitsu; your chances are not going to be great. His quotes about Rickson are from 2006, when Rickson was almost 48 years old. If a near 50 Rickson wowed him, I'd love to see what a younger version would have done. Renzo was 40, 6 years older than Shamrock, and noticeably smaller . The way Renzo handled him is relevant.
Don't get me wrong, I do rate Franklin after watching a lot of his early career fights I think by 2006 he'd established himself as the best MW in history. I'm just saying due to the unknown of his TDD the way you describe sounds like you are doubting the effectiveness of Rickson's takedowns. And without an effective takedown you then have to wonder who he'd ever be able to compete with at an elite level. I totally disagree on Filho, I think he's a terrific well rounded fighter and up until the bizarre fight with Sonnen he'd have given anyone hell. His performances in the GP were exceptional and when a sub wasn't on he had no issue laying on the g&p. Doesn't matter. People decline at different rates. Beating Shamrock in 2000 and beating Shamrock in 2007 are totally different kettles of fish. Shamrock is probably the first truly well rounded MMA fighter in terms of striking, grappling and conditioning. The way he gave away weight to Tito and stopped him was incredible. You can watch Shamrock in his prime and still now be awesome with his skillset even given how far the game has come. I think comparing him in 2007 is a poor choice. Take the man who fought Horn in 98.
Rickson actually weighs 185 lbs. Middleweight fighters are usually 200+ pound guys that fight at 185. At least they were until some of the organizations began to address weight cutting. I'm trying to be fair to Rich and in doing so maybe I'm being unfair to Rickson. Renzo was also better when he was younger. I'll take the Renzo that submitted Maurice Smith in '99 over any version of Frank Shamrock. This content is protected
It's tough isn't it because of how little we know about Rickson in MMA. He took down Funaki the way you describe but maybe with lighter men he'd be more confident with a double leg. I mean it's a standard takedown to learn. Renzo is excellent imo, actually I rate him the second best Gracie behind Royce (in terms of proven MMA fighters). One thing you have to understand about me and my MMA journey is I'm an incredibly new fan. The first MMA fight I ever watched was Lesnar Vs Cain. The next fight was Silva Vs Weidman. I'd say I didn't even become a fan until Silva Vs Weidman 2. Then I started watching it regularly, then I began looking at history of MMA. A few months ago I purchased the first 70 UFC events and I've been watching them sequentially (watching Pride as they happen as well). I've just watched UFC 60 the other day. That's why if you look at the last couple of threads I'm only including fighters up until 2006. So as it happens, for me right now Renzo is someone who was an excellent WW but feel short to Sakuraba and Newton (plus some bigger men). However, looking at his record he is about to rack 3 fairly big victories so I'll probably change the way I view him myself. I'm confident discussing any MMA fighter until 2006, progress is slow but steady.
I think Franklin has become massively underrated.. Had Silva not been around who knows how long his reign would have lasted? After that he won important "legacy" fights against W. Silva and Liddel. Not to mention solid wins over a prime Hamill and Okami, oh yeah he got robbed against Hendo as well. Franklin was never submitted throughout his entire career. I think during his prime he beats any of the Gracies tbh.
Franklin is a great great fighter, I don't think it can be doubted. Not being submitted is easier when you don't fight submission fighters though. It's an interesting one.
Franklin - lose KO, gonna go with the others and say Franklin has too good a TDD and sub defence. I mean ultimately Franklin had a long career and never was submitted so it has to count for something. Henderson - lose decision, Henderson is too rounded a wrestler to get submitted by a smaller man. Shamrock - lose points, I rate Frank very very highly and ultimately I think his submission training is a high enough level to compete with any black belt. Filho - lose points, ultimately I have to disregard gym stories. Filho is proven at a world level, Rickson isn't. Bustamante - win points, Murilo is not as proven as the champs who came after and I can give Rickson the benefit of the doubt here. Tanner - win sub, Evan doesn't have enough ground game to deal with Rickson. Anderson - lose points. Anderson showed issues on the mat a few times but always overcame then by virtue of a strong guard and exceptional striking. So ultimately I think Rickson can be given beenfit of doubt, but not against proven elite level champions. What does that mean? Means today he'd be an underdog against any of the top 5 (Bisping, Whittaker, Souza, Jacare, Weidman) but if he won any of those fights and proved his abilities we could then interpolate his greatness rather than extrapolate it. For me Royce has the wins over Shamrock, Severn and the first fight with Sakuraba. Renzo has the wins over Williams, Taktarov, Miletich, Newton and Shamrock. So I don't care what family members say about who's better in the gym, those two proved it, Rickson didn't.
Yeah it's a long time joke. Rickson had a little Frank Dux in him I'd say, sure he wasn't a complete fraud but he definitely made some ludicrous larger than life claims.
That's the thing I don't like about him, he talked **** about a lot of men and fought none of them. Atleast when Royce said he was still the best WW in the world he went and fought Matt Hughes to prove it.
