Riddick Bowe and Liston - a thought experiment

Inspired by Sonny's jab's words, imagine the following situation.

Riddick Bowe is born in 1934 and turns pro at 22, in 1956. Assume he matures into his 6'5" 235lbs frame just like he did in the 80's. He racks up wins against tomato cans but in '59 he steps up to face Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams and an old Valdez. In 1960, he has a rematch with Williams and bouts with the slippery Machen, the much lesser durable Foley and Harris. It is around this time he reaches his peak.

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In '62 he gets a shot at the title against Floyd Patterson. This would be the last time he'd ever be in great shape again and below 240lbs. He has a rematch the next year but comes in between 244 and 250lbs. He then fights a young kid called Clay in the same physical condition only to rematch him in '65, later than expected because he pulled out because of a back injury.

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After that, he fights a string of fringe contenders only to step up again in '69 against prospect Leotis Martin.




What kind of record does the 50's Bowe compile ? And where would you rank him in the top10 based on that?

 

I think he'd have an almost identical career.

The losses Liston suffered to Marty and Marshall are insignificant. I'd have Bowe beating them both, but if Liston hadn't fought them, I'd say he'd beat them as well. Let's ignore those two. If he wasn't in shape, a young Ali would beat him twice, although harder than the fights Ali had with Liston. As for the key wins, Patterson, Williams and co., Bowe would beat them all too. He wouldn't have such an easy time, but the result would a 'W' anyway.




Just to add something ese to this otherwise boring post, I don't think Liston would have gone 42-1 in Bowe's shoes. He would have lost to Holyfield perhaps all three times and I think Golota may have beaten Liston twice too.

 

He'd become a hot prospect at least, because I know he'd beat Cleveland Williams both times.

 

Wasn't that a rite of passage for over-rated fighters of the era?

Bowe destroys everyone in his path, making Liston a footnote.

 

It was assuming, of course, that Liston wasn't around during that time.

What if he fights Johansson right after Ingo knocked out Machen in one round in addition to the other fights?

 

The big unknowns is whether he would be ready to meet the fighters that Liston met in his early career.

Remember that this Bowe dose not have a long amateur career culminating in a silver medal win in the olympics. He is just thrown into the profesional ranks and matched hard early on. His oponents will not be selected with a view to him beating them.

Given these circumstances it is highly likley that he picks up a loss to sombody like Johny Summerlin early on.

Asuming that he is able to navigate these early obstacles (not a given)

Assuming also that he gets past Williams Folley and Machen (not a given)

He has a good chance of beating Patterson (not a given)

He might also manage it in again in the rematch (not a given)

Then he should be around to get beaten up by young Cassius Clay

 

I think the same as Liston's, but Bowe did have a lot of heart. He would never lay down vs Ali.

 

The only stumbling block I can see is Clay/Ali. Cleveland Williams lost in all his big fights, DeHohn and Valdez were nothing special, Machen was competent but beatable, Foley might prove quite tough but Riddick's power and jab would be too much and Harris...not a threat at all, if you ask me.

Patterson would be annihilated by Bowe, maybe even as convincingly as Liston beat him. Certainly, it would only be a matter of when, not if, Patterson capitulates.

The Ali fights...well if Riddick is slightly out of shape it'll obviously be harder, but at 246 (As he weighed during the 2nd Holyfield fight) he was still very formidable, and went 12 fast-paced rounds.

Now some may laugh, but I give Riddick a good chance against the Ali/Clay of the Liston fights, because Ali/Clay had by no means matured yet as a fighter.
Even if Bowe loses he would have been a hell of a lot more competitive.
(PS-does Bowe get injured as Liston did?)

So he goes on this unbeaten run against a string of average fighters until he fights Leotis Martin...I don't know if you could call Martin a "prospect" - he was 30 years old and had already lost 4 fights before tackling Liston.
Martin also barely ever scaled over 200 lbs.
I don't see why Bowe (even at 34/35 years old) should have too much of a problem with him.

So, worst case scenario is he loses to Ali and maybe someone else on an off night.
Best case is (of course) that he wins AT LEAST one fight with Ali and beats the rest.

 

First of all, Bowe would not have matured into a 6'5'' 235 pounder had he been born in 1934.

Assuming (just assuming) he did, he would have a win-loss record similar to Liston. The round endings of the bouts would have been different, of course. For instance, Bowe wouldn't have knocked out Patterson in the first round. It would have taken him more time. The 1st Marty Marshall fight was an aberration in Liston's career. Barring some unforeseen incident, a loss on Bowe's record would not be there till Bowe met Ali.

Whether Bowe would have given Ali a more difficult time than Liston did (in the first fight) is debatable. But it does not matter. Bowe would ahve ended up with two losses.

However, there is one uncertainty. With his confidence dented by Ali, how Bowe would have performed against Leotis Martin. Martin could punch. Based on Bowe's performance against Golota, a win for Bowe is not a given. What do you people think?

 

Isn't Marty and Marshall one person, Marty Marshall.

 

Sorry if it was not clear from the initial post, but when Bowe turns pro in '56, he has exactly the same experience as he did in '89. So how do you see it going? How much of a chance do you give Machen, Harris, Foley and Patterson with a prime Bowe?

No. Though it's questionable if he had a shoulder injury in the first place, but that is beyond the scope of this topic.


It's interesting how he'd fare against Ali. As he showed against Holyfield, despite being out of shape, he could still throw a ton of punches..... for 12 rounds that is. For whatever reason, his stamina has always been very good. It's damn near impossible for him to give Ali an easier fight than Liston did. In the first fight that is. If he's forced to take a dive, who knows what happens.

 

This is another part of your premise that has to be questioned.

Bowe basicaly stayed on the straight and narrow for 3 years untill he won the title from Hollyfield.

Can we asume that he stays on the straight and narrow for 9 years like Liston did untill he won the title from Patterson?

Or even 6 years as in the scenario you project?

There are just so many variables that make Bowes prime run non transferable to Listons era.

 

A prime motivated Bowe, beats everyone in that era except Ali. Patterson was too small, Ingo didn't have what it takes, and Machen, Folley, Williams, weren't in his league. Bowe has too much of eveything, size, strength, power, boxing ability, chin,.

 

Always remember with any question like this, that it is a lot easier to beat sombody elses competition in theory than to actualy step into the ring and do it.

Yo can theoreticaly imagine Bowe besting any of Joe Louis's or Larry Holmses title oponents but when it comes to getting into shape and delivering 20+ times it is going to be a diferent matter.