Riddick Bowe vs Joe Frazier

Yes, Frazier hadn't reached his prime when he fought Bonavena. But several fighters who didn't punch as hard as Bowe rocked Frazier.

Bowe is stronger in his generally bigger body. Just as Frazier is stronger than a LHW.

Yes, Frazier would get through to Bowe, but Bowe would get through as well. And I think he had the fire power to put Joe out before Joe wore him down. Of course, he wouldn't win 10 out of 10, but a majority of the time IMO.

 

Bigger body doesn't mean strength.

Bowe would get through early but fad late as he would get worn down late from accumulation.

 

Eeer...? In most cases it definitely does, yes, and I think this is most cases.

Joe wasn't terrible strong for his size. Bonavena, for example, was stronger and so was Foreman, without being that much bigger. And Bowe wasn't weak for his size.

This is of course not impossible.

 

No bigger bodies doesn't mean strength. I have experience when I was on the high school weightlifting team. There were some guys in the 119 pound weightclasses benching more than some guys in the 154's.

 

Yes, generally it does. Of course, there's always going to be small guys that are stronger than many bigger guys, but for the vast majority bigger is stronger. Just look at the strong man contests, there are hardly any below 300 lbs. You're certainly not going to see any 150 lbs guys there.

Now, the weight difference between Frazier and Bowe isn't at big as that of course, but it's still quite substantial and Frazier wasn't freakishly strong for his size. He was outmuscled by both Bonavena and Foreman, so I don't see why he wouldn't be by Bowe who certainly wasn't weak for his size.

 

Strong man contests are controversial because they all take some type of performance enhancing substance, like MetRx.

The difference from Bonavena to Bowe is that Oscar actually had solid defense. He had a nice shoulder roll. Besides, you need to look at their second bout for a more accurate look. Frazier won a comfortable UD in the second fight.

You have to look at Frazier-Mathis. Mathis was 4 inches taller and had a 3 inch reach advantage, he also outweighed Frazier by 40 pounds. Mathis was TKO'd in the 11th round.

 

Im not convinced that Bowe gets beaten on the inside. Bowe was perceived to get drawn into brawls which negated his reach advantage, but when was he actually beaten on the inside? He leant on smaller fighters and his inside combinations were extremely effective, powerful and accurate. I think he would often fight inside because he was better in there than most. His leaky defense is countered by a sturdy chin and great heart and recuperative powers.

 

Doesn't really matter does it? Smaller guys could also take the same substances.

It's really ridicolous continuing this debate, though. Whereever you look the bigger guys will generally be stronger and more powerful; whether it's boxing, wrestling or weight lifting. Why do you think they have weight classes? To protect the big guys from unfair competition?

Sometimes you will have cases of smaller guys with freakish strength and/or bigger guys that's unusually weak. But nothing really indicates that Frazier was unusually strong for his size (compared to other pro boxers) or that Bowe was unusually weak for his.

You're not going to argue that Bonavena was a better fighter than Bowe, are you? Sure, Frazier was improved in the second, but it was still a tough fight.

Yeah, but Mathis was a tub of lard. He was certainly not as strong or powerful as his weight implied. And even though he was inferior to Bowe in every aspect except defence he was ahead when Frazier stopped him.

Thing is, of the two strongest and most powerful guys Frazier fought, one gave him two tough fights and nearly stopped him in the first, and one used him as a basketball in two fights. I love Frazier, but however you twist it these are stats that make his chances against the skilled giants look pretty bleak.

 

His inside game is good but not better than Frazier's. He had a clear advantage over Holyfield on the inside and still almost lost. Then he did in their second fight.

Frazier has a higher workrate than Holyfield and will find his way through Bowe's guard. A sturdy chin will only get you so far.

 

I am not arguing that Bonavena is better than Bowe. They are different fighters, not really alike. You keep bringing up the first Bonavena fight. It's really not a valid point; that was a green Frazier.

Foreman beat Frazier by keeping distance from him, something Bowe would not be able to do.

Mathis was not ahead on the cards, one card was even, another had Frazier up by 2 and the other had Frazier up by 5.

 

Holy didnt beat him inside in the second fight he beat him by turning him and stepping around him, something Frazier didnt do.
Remember also Frazier would be wearing shots on the inside too, again something he was not used to. His inside game may not be as good as Joes but it is better than anyone else Joe fought. Joe has no option but to fight inside so what happens when Bowe starts landing those uppercuts and hooks inside. Joe never tied guys up and Bowe hits more than hard enough to get Joe shaky.

A sturdy chin does only get you so far but Bowe was a pretty good survivor.

 

You make a fair arguement. Joe Frazier would be the best in-fighter that Bowe ever fought as well. Joe going down is definetly a possibility.

What happens down the stretch when Joe gets his shots through Bowe's guard? Joe has enough pop to hurt and drop Bowe as well; it would have to be late in the fight though.

 

Yeah, they were very different. But one reason I've used it was to compare Frazier's strength. And it also strengthens the view that Frazier had difficulties with hard hitting fighters that could push him around. Otherwise, Bonavena is not really a good comparison, that I agree with.

I'm not so sure of that. I think Bowe could catch him with hard uppercuts coming in just as Foreman did. Don't forget that young Foreman was not a long range but a mid range fighter.

Yeah, I see on boxrec that you're right. My bad.

 

It's a defenite possibility that Bowe could catch Frazier with something big coming in and drop him. I just believe that eventually it will end up on the inside and it will come down to who can fight better on the inside; for me I would bet Frazier.

 

Bowe was twice the fighter that Mathis was. Bowe had the tools to beat Frazier at long range, and he also had the ability to beat Frazier in close. Frazier had more heart and was obviously the more accomplished and established champion, but Bowe just beats him due to styles and physical tools.