Also, I think, @janitor, that the McLean/Cribb discussion isn't easy to table if you want to continue the era vs era argument. Mostly because of what it's being used to prove. I'm basically saying that your decision to throw up your hands and abandon discussions of era quality as unknowable is wonky. Cribb and McLean illustrate that. If your standards don't allow you to distinguish between the quality of Cribb's era, Ali's era, Sullivan's era, and McLean's seedy underworld boxing scene, it needs recalibration. Let me use a metaphor. The problem isn't the particular scenery that we're looking at. If we change eras -- change scenery -- the problem will remain. It's the colored goggles you're wearing that present the problem. At least from where I'm standing, that's what it seems like. What's good evidence of era quality, to a fair degree of probability? That's the issue, IMO, that these discussions are continually getting wrecked on in this thread.