RJJ or May. Who has the better Legacy? p4p ranking?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by surfinghb, Mar 10, 2019.


  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    RJJ is another that didn’t really have more experience when he faced Toney. And GGG didn’t face anyone I'd call world class before Jacobs. The amount of experience Canelo had wasn't small in comparison.

    But fair enough, you think he looked inexperienced. I don't think he's ever looked good against defensively world class fighters. I saw no distinct improvement against Khan. He didn't corner him or anything like that, but just feinted him and exposed his poor defense.
     
  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I see it like this:

    Just about everyone Floyd fought, bar especially Castillo and Maidana, looked much poorer than usual against him.

    Canelo has looked poorer than usual against every top defensively minded opponent he's faced.

    Now combine those two.
     
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  3. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    Floyd is going down a better legacy.

    Roy possibly was better than any fighter at his absolute peak.
     
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  4. Brixton Bomber

    Brixton Bomber Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Remember when these two were active in the 90’s to mid 00’s and NOBODY thought Floyd was better than RJJ? Me too.

    Floyd demanded catch-weights, opponents to not use their preferred gloves, hydration clauses, special rules etc. Has opponents on his record that were 0-0-0.

    RJJ started as a MW, went to HW (first person to do so in 106 years) and besides HW would be classed as the GOAT in every division he fought in.

    Roy, by far.
     
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  5. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He clearly looked inexperienced though, and many others can see the same thing, that, he wasn't ready for that step up in class. Neither technically or mentally. He simply wasn't ready for the most part. He absolutely looked better against Khan. His body language, his aggression looking for the counter shot (which came), all point to a much different fighter than the one we say against May. They were almost night and day. Same with the GGG no. 2, which you didn't address.... do you think that version is so passive and gunshy against May? Come on man, I don't know how you can't see the obvious.

    You continually act like May always makes foes look worse against him that other make them look. That simply isn't true. Take Cotto and Hoya for example, both looked better against May than they did against Pac. In both instances against Pac it was an apparent mismatch that you thought was going to be stopped. You didn't get near the same feeling with those guys against May. Mosley looked better against May than he did against Canelo. Should we talk about the fights Castillo, Maidana and Judah as examples looked worse against than May? May doesn't make everybody he fights look worse. Canelo simply looked worse, because, well, he was worse at that stage.
     
  6. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    May was in his prime when Roy was in his... Why did nobody think May was even in the same ballpark as Roy at the time? Odd.
     
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  7. Brixton Bomber

    Brixton Bomber Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Because RJJ was doing things that NOBODY was doing.

    He made great fighters look totally inept, and he’d embarrass you. Floyd never did that.

    He was a freak of nature.
     
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  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No. Khan and Floyd were night and day. Floyd is one of the great defensive fighters of all time, Khan is a defensively poor fighter whose defense is his offense. Bad news when you face a substantially bigger and stronger opponent.

    The guys that troubled Floyd (Castillo and Maidana) did so by relentless pressure and cutting off the ring. Canelo didn't apply that kind of pressure to Khan. He didn't cut him off and corner him, but patiently set his trap (the right to the body which he finally threw to the head after a feint) and iced Khan mid ring.

    GGG, a truly aggressive fighter, would probably have Khan on the ropes in no time and KO him in probably one, maybe two, rounds. Canelo's patient approach against a small guy like Khan showed once again to me that he isn't this naturally aggressive, search and destroy fighter fighter like GGG or Maidana.

    I wrote on my mobile (which I really don't like) and skipped that one since it seemed even less relevant to me from a stylistic perspective. Yes, Canelo made GGG give up ground, but that doesn't mean GGG fought anything close to the fight Floyd did. Floyd always thinks defense first, GGG always thinks offense first. It's hard to find to clearer contrasts in modern times. GGG gave ground not because he was afraid of Canelo's offense, but because he needs room for his own offense to be at its most effective.

    Hatton also looked worse against Pac than he did against Floyd. Doesn't mean Floyd didn't dominate him in a way that no one had done up until that point. He did. It was just that Pac blitzed guys (and in Oscar's case he had also declined further when he met Pac), while Floyd was happy to put rounds in the bag while taking as little risk as possible.

    Yes, what about Judah? Like Mosley he had some early success, then Floyd walked him down. Guerrero, Berto, Cotto, Baldomir, DLH, Corrales, JMM, Mosley, Gatti, Judah, Hatton, Pac - he controlled all these guys for the whole or most part of their meets and made them look ineffectual in a way they seldom did. About half of them were p4p ranked when Floyd fought them. He had absolutely no problem making top fighters look ordinary. In no way was Canelo the only one this happened to,

    As I said, Castillo and Maidana were the main exceptions, even though he controlled both quite well in the rematches. What they had in common is that they managed to hassle and pressure Floyd for large part of their first fights with him. The cut him off against the ropes and cornered him. Canelo has never been that kind of fighter to date. Not against Trout and Lara (whom he faced after Floyd) and not against Floyd. Not even against Khan. It was jus that his poor defense let Canelo take care of matters in the middle of the ring.

    And this is all the time I'm going to spend on this sidetrack for now.
     
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  9. Jackstraw

    Jackstraw Active Member Full Member

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    This is a good, reasonable take. I prefer Roy but Floyd has some good arguments in his favor
     
  10. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You pretty much missed the point entirely. You tried to claim that Floyd makes everybody look worse, and I was illustrating that others made them look worse than Floyd, so.....? It doesn't matter if Pac blitzed him or didn't... he simply made these fighters look like they had no chance at all and were going to be stopped. I never had that impression when they fought May. Shoot, Sturm and Ike both made a FAR YOUNGER Oscar look worse all things considered. We could go on and on.

    Again you missed the point about Khan and GGG. Nobody said they fought like May or had the same attributes as him. What I'm saying is... the difference is Canelo. It's completely irrelevant why GGG was backing up, the fact is Canelo was MAKING him back up and forcing that action with his aggression and confidence. That is TOTALLY the opposite of how he looked and fought against May. Same with Khan, I'm not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse or if you simply haven't seen the fight in a long time. Take a look:



    His body language, his pursuit of Khan, his commitment to his punches are all VASTLY different than he look against May. They are literally night and day. It has nothing to do with what May was or wasn't doing, and everything to do with where Canelo was at during this stage of his career. It's so obvious that it boggles my mind you can't see it. I asked, and you answered with something totally different. Do you think the Canelo of the GGG no. 2 would've been so passive and gunshy against May. Simple question. Do you believe Canelo would've fought and acted the same? It seems very clear to me it would look different. Doesn't mean he'd have this much or this little success with it, again that is an irrelevant point you keep trying to make that I'm not arguing . What I am saying is, it would look a lot different with a more technically sound, confident and aggressive Canelo. Simple. Doesn't mean he'd win, but it wouldn't look like the same fight. How you can't see that is amazing to me
     
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  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, he didn't. Too bad with these things. Like Canelo now inserting a clause about another weigh in. If he beats Jacobs detractors will always have that to refer to and if the ones who like Canelo, like me, will be in doubt if it's close. Don't like that stuff one bit.
     
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  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    To get back to the Floyd vs Roy comparison: One thing I miss on Floyd's record is opponents with a longer reach than he had. There's is Oscar, but otherwise no one I think. Roy faced his fair share of rangy guys. Maybe he was a bit light on punchers, though...
     
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  13. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I assume Corrales as well
     
  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Actually not according to Boxrec. He was taller, but Floyd had a hell of a reach in relation to his height
     
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  15. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Wow! I am surprised lol
     
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