RJJ or May. Who has the better Legacy? p4p ranking?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by surfinghb, Mar 10, 2019.


  1. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Floyd moved up and beat Cotto for his WBA super welterweight title, moved up and beat Canelo for his WBC super welterweight title, and moved down and beat Pacquiao for the welterweight title.

    And you're bragging about Jones beating Ruiz and moving back down and getting wasted by Tarver?

    Cotto, Canelo and Pac are all likely going to be in the Hall of Fame.

    When do you think Ruiz and Tarver will get in?
     
  2. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I don't care about his end of career defeats.

    If it was a case where he fought absolute nobodies for years on end, but then he started to lose when he suddenly drastically stepped up his competition, it would be relevant and worth discussing. But it's not. We know why he lost against those guys. He simply fought on for way too long.

    With his unique, unorthadox style that was built around his incredible reflexes, he either needed to retire very early, or he needed to change his style to compensate for his age. But he didn't, and he paid a heavy price. Again, although the losses can't be ignored, they have to be put into context.

    Would you hold Ray Leonard's and Roberto Duran's losses against them, if you compared their careers to Floyd?

    I don't care if Roy's prime was 16 years ago.

    You can't undo what's already been done.

    You have to take the losses for what they are.

    I don't care if Floyd made more money.

    More popular?

    1. We now live in a world of social media.

    2. Floyd is universally hated, where millions of people tuned in the hope of seeing him lose.

    There is no landslide victory here for Floyd.

    Roy put it all on the line and went to HW and back.

    Floyd kept taking vacations, and then only fought once per year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  3. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Why do you keep calling them end of the career defeats when they weren't at the end of his career? They were in the middle.

    He fought from 1989 to 2018. He got knocked out by Tarver and Johnson in 2004. That wasn't the end of his career.

    And if I've made the same arguments against Duran.

    When you're a mediocre fighter longer than you're a great fighter ... the mediocre times have to be considered since they were the majority of your career.

    Someone like Ali looked awful against Holmes and Berbick in 1980 and 1981. Jones looked awful for roughly 16 years. Big difference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  4. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Roy didn't "put it all on the line." Lennox Lewis was the heavyweight champion. Fighting him would've been putting it all on the line.

    Hell, Jones was favored to beat Ruiz. Ruiz was a paper champ.
     
  5. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Oscar was his best win.

    There's no way Manny was better than Oscar. Not the version who Floyd fought.

    "Pac and Mosley both beat Oscar"

    This is a prime example of where you let yourself down.

    You don't apply any context.

    Shane beat a prime version of Oscar in 2 extremely close fights.

    Oscar was physically ill when Manny fought him. Jeez! He was sick. The man was like a zombie. It was amazing that he was allowed to fight.

    The version of Shane that Floyd fought was nowhere the version who Oscar fought.

    The version who Canelo fought wasn't as formidable as Oscar. Canelo was green, he was 152 pounds, and he was terrified of being countered by Floyd. Floyd backed himself onto the ropes, and Canelo just stood off of him.

    We're not looking at Canelo as he is now, we're looking at the specific version that Floyd fought.

    Again, context.

    Then we have to look at Floyd antics from over the years.

    We'll start with Canelo:

    Before negotiations:

    "We don't care what he rehydrates to. It doesn't matter to us. It's not about weight. It's about skills. Skills pay the bills"

    During negotiations for a JMW title:

    "It's either a 152 C-W, or no fight"
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  6. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    At this point, your whole argument for why Jones had a better career than Mayweather was Jones outpointed Ruiz once, then sucked for the next 16 years.

    Floyd easily had the better career and the better legacy. Better first 50 wins. Far more fame. Mountains more money. More dominant. Longer on top (by a decade).

    Was never mowed down time after time after time.

    Better legacy.

    Better in every regard.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  7. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah, we're looking at a Canelo with 42 wins instead of 51.

    Go away. You lose. Floyd was better. Clearly. Anyone with a rational thought can look at their two careers as a whole and see that.
     
  8. BundiniBlack

    BundiniBlack Active Member Full Member

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    Roy's resume is simply far far superior.

    I would argue Roy's 4th best win against Reggie Johnson might be better than Floyd's best win
     
  9. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    And you would lose that argument to the sound of laughter.

    This is getting embarrassing.
     
  10. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And again, no context.

    This is the thing:

    Floyd clearly has more named wins than Roy. Clearly. However, we're not just comparing the names. No. We're looking at the specific versions of who fought who, and what the circumstances were. That my friend is how you rate a win.

    Floyd beating Cotto isn't as impressive as Roy beating Tarver. And I don't care if Cotto makes the hall of fame and Tarver doesn't. Because what I look at is the degree of difficulty and the circumstances involved.

    Now if you want to compare Cotto and Tarver, and declare that on a pound for pound/prime for prime basis, that Cotto was the better fighter, then be my guest. You won't get any arguments from me. But again that's not how it works.

    A faded Cotto simply did not bring the challenge that Tarver brought to Roy. Cotto had seen better days and had been pummelled by Marg. He was never quite the same afterwards. Floyd fought him with a significant reach advantage, and was never really in danger, despite Cotto giving his best effort. Yet when Roy fought Tarver, he had to burn muscle in just 2 months. Not weight, actual muscle. Muscle at 35 years of age, for his 50th fight. By the second half of the fight, Roy was running on fumes as he was absolutely exhausted. Not only that, Tarver was a big southpaw, who presented Roy with a very tough challenge stylistically.

    That is how you rate a win. Not just on name recognition, but on the degree of difficulty and the circumstances.

    Now it would be laughable if you were to conduct a poll asking who the better fighter was between Canelo and Tarver. But between the version of Canelo who Floyd fought, and looking at the circumstances and the stylistic challenge that Tarver brought to Roy, I would say for sure that Roy's win over Tarver was better than Floyd's win over Canelo. Although I give huge credit for Floyd being in great shape at the age that he was, again, he fought a green, naive version of Canelo, at a C-W which was completely unecessary.

    Comparing Manny and Ruiz would be even funnier. I'd get banned if I did a poll. But Pac was an easy win for Floyd, as he offered zero threat because he was half the fighter he once was. Whereas although Ruiz was awful in comparison, he was at least a threat to Roy, as he was 35 pounds heavier and Roy had slowed down. Again, the point is:

    It's not just as simple as comparing names and who you think will go into the Hall of fame etc. Again, it's about much more than that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  11. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Okay.

    Past prime defeats.

    They're not really relevant are they.

    Otherwise, Marciano was a better HW than Ali, as he had a longer reign and he was undefeated.
     
  12. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Give me a break.

    Lennox Lewis?

    We're talking here about a 35 year old LHW who started out at JMW.

    So what if he didn't fight Lennox Lewis?

    Fighting Ruiz and then rushing back for Tarver was a huge ask.

    What was Floyd doing for his 50th fight? Trying to reach Rocky's record by fighting an MMA fighter who'd never had a pro fight?

    Floyd never put anything on the line.

    When the divisions hotted up, he took more vacations than Clark W. Griswold.
     
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  13. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I haven't even said that Roy had the better career.

    I said that it's very close, and you have to look a hell of a lot deeper than just comparing stats.

    It's okay saying Roy sucked for the last 16 years, but he'd already cemented his legacy at that point and had fought the same amount of times that Floyd has now.

    It's very close.

    Again, Floyd has many more names. But I think Roy achieved more by going up to HW and back, and I think he has the best singular win against Toney.

    For more fame?

    For more money?

    You're getting desperate.

    I've never seen a poster rank a guy based on career earnings.

    He's not better in every regard.

    You are blinded by stats.
     
  14. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You portray yourself as a small child in the playground.

    "Go away, you lose, Floyd made more money"

    Ha!

    Brilliant.

    Canelo then, wasn't even half the fighter he is now.

    If Floyd had beaten today's Canelo at that advanced age he was, Roy wouldn't have any win which would compare.

    But again, it's not that simple.

    Floyd beat a young, naive version of Cotto, at a C-W, which was clearly put forward in the hope of draining him.

    Which is why Roy had better wins, and why Floyd had other wins which were better than that.
     
  15. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Dubblechin,


    Let's do some comparisons:


    Longevity - Floyd


    Unbeaten Record - Floyd


    Marquee names - Floyd


    Achievements?

    Did Floyd really achieve more, considering that Roy started out at JMW, before going up to HW and then dropping back to LHW, making history in the process?


    Biggest win?

    Does Floyd hold a better win than Roy's complete shut out over a 26 year old, prime James Toney, who was considered the no.2, P4P fighter in the world at the time?

    Again, in my honest opinion, Floyd's win over Oscar was his best win. It was his biggest challenge. And only a fool would say that wins over Manny and Shane were better, on the grounds that they both beat Oscar. It doesn't work like that.


    Biggest risk taker?

    Did Floyd take more risks in his career than what Roy did?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019


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