RJJ or May. Who has the better Legacy? p4p ranking?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by surfinghb, Mar 10, 2019.


  1. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    BitPlayerVesti,

    I never said he achieved anything at JMW. I said that he started out as youngster at JMW, before ending up fighting at HW.

    That's a big achievement.

    It's very rare for former MW champs to end up fighting anybody at HW.

    Roy won titles from MW to HW, before dropping back from HW to reclaim the LHW titles.

    How many times has that happened?


    Yes, we have to note that Toney had weight issues in that fight.

    How is that relevant?

    You've added nothing to the debate.
     
  2. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Active Member Full Member

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    Best wins :

    Floyd - Alvarez, Pac, De La Hoya, Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, Marquez, Judah, Mosley, Hernandez, Maidana

    Roy - Toney, Hopkins, Ruiz, Tarver, Trinidad, Hill, Johnson, Griffin

    Accomplishments :

    Floyd - 5 weight champ, retired undefeated

    Roy - 4 weight champ, won HW championship belt

    Legacy :

    Floyd - Amazing skill level and athletic ability, excellent wins on his resume but also numerous missed opportunities, avoided certain opponents, unlikable and brash personality

    Roy : Arguably most naturally gifted fighter of all time, barely lost a round in his prime, numerous missed opportunities, declined extremely quickly, once reflexes faded he was knocked out badly more than once, legacy likely tarnished by fighting on for far too long

    You decide
     
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  3. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    When we're listing the version of Mosley, Pac, DLH and a green deer in headlight Canelo as somebody's best wins.... that says enough.
     
  4. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's very difficult to answer mate.

    I don't think anybody can say it's one guy, no questions asked.

    Personally, I think that if Roy had retired after Ruiz, it'd probably be 50/50 for most people. Of course we can't just pretend that Roy didn't lose all of those fights, but at the same time, we have to see them for what they were.

    Resume - I think Floyd just has more names. He's got more Hill type opponents on his resume. But I think their best wins are comparable.

    Oscar for Floyd

    Toney for Roy

    Achievements - Floyd won a belt in one more weight class, but it's extremely rare for a former MW champ to secure a belt a HW. And Roy was only the second man in history to drop back from HW to reclaim the LHW titles.

    Legacy - Pretty even for me. It's just that Roy's ego let him carry on for too long.

    Overall - I can't really call it.
     
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  5. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That's a lie. Of course, losses affect legacies. And a LOT of losses by knockout do real damage to legacies.

    I remember Jones being talked about as possibly the best fighter who ever lived before and after the Ruiz fight. A year later, after getting starched by Tarver and Johnson, nobody was saying that. And now, people are wondering where he belongs ... but nobody is saying he was the best fighter who ever lived anymore.

    Hell, Jones often wasn't even the best fighter on the show he fought on over the last 16 years. Forget all time.

    If Floyd Mayweather got knocked out six or seven times, like Roy Jones did, are you telling me people - especially those who bash Mayweather NOW even though he's undefeated - wouldn't consider him even worse than they consider him now?

    That's not only nonsense, you know it isn't true so it's a lie.

    Leaving at the right time matters. Being a mediocre fighter longer than you were a GREAT fighter MATTERS.

    Roy Jones was a top fighter for a decade. Then he fought for another 16 years. And he wasn't very good.

    Floyd Mayweather was a top fighter for nearly two decades. He's never been destroyed, like Jones. He's never lost decisions where he wasn't even in the fight, like Jones.

    And if Floyd started getting knocked out by one punch by a handful of guys, and he started losing one-sided decisions, his all-time status would take a HUGE hit. And if Floyd kept going and kept getting knocked out for 16 years, like Jones has done, it would take a HUGE hit.

    Losses, especially bad ones, impact all fighters' legacies.

    And people who nitpick the entire career of an undefeated guy, and then completely ignore 16 years of another guy's resume when he took a dump on everything he'd accomplished earlier, are the worst of the worst when it comes to being biased.

    Floyd Mayweather clearly has left a better legacy and should be rated higher all-time than Roy Jones, who sounds like he's about to sign to meet an MMA opponent next (because Mayweather did) and they'll be picking up Jones' body off the floor again in a couple months.

    Roy Jones is a trainwreck. And he has been for longer than he was great.

    Floyd Mayweather's career, on the other hand, got people who weren't even boxing fans interested in the sport again.
     
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  6. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Active Member Full Member

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    Haha, you see if you want to nitpick and dicredit a boxer's best wins you can that to just about anyone, yes there's questions marks around some of Floyd's win's but could you apply that to just about anyone including Roy.

    Hopkins - green
    Toney - dead at the weight, overrated, got lucky decisions over McCallum, Tiberi, Johnson and Williams etc.
    Trinidad - blown up welter, washed up by the time Roy fought him
    Johnson - Past his best
    Hill - See above
    Ruiz - Arguably worst HW champ in history

    See how easy it is ?? But I'm not going to go down that route, the wins above were all very good/excellent and the same goes for Floyd's best wins.
     
  7. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Now you're being too generous. Toney was a much better win for Roy than Oscar was for May... they aren't close really
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
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  8. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What about the logic that Dubblechin has used?

    He rates Floyd's wins over Mosley and Pac higher than the win over Oscar, on the grounds that both of those guys beat Oscar.

    That's what we're dealing with.

    It made me cringe.

    There's many posters who don't rate wins properly. They rate them on name recognition, instead of really looking in-depth at them.

    I think Oscar has to be Floyd's best win.

    I thought the Marquez win was great after the lay off, but then how can you ignore the stunt he pulled regarding the weight?
     
  9. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I know the point you're trying to make, but I just don't see it here. That green Hopkins was worlds better than the green Canelo imo. Toney, while drained some, was still the p4p no. 1 guy... Floyd doesn't have anybody on his resume that was the p4p best when he beat them. I'd list McCallum and M.G. before some you listed. Point is, Floyd's best names were well past their best when he beat them. His best wins imo are Corrales, Catillo and Cotto
     
  10. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I agree. I don't subscribe to Dubble's weird logic when it comes to losses out of your prime. He counts those like prime losses, and that's plain silly imo.
     
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  11. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Oh please. Whose career would you rather have? Floyd Mayweather's or Roy Jones'?

    Would you rather win all your fights. Win titles in five divisions. Beat a pile of Hall of Famers. Make the most money of any fighter ever. Become a household name. (Win Dancing with the Stars if you're into reality TV). Knock out top fighters in other fighting disciplines.

    Or would you rather start strong and then spend the last two-thirds of your career getting knocked out, fighting in states and countries without commissions, and having people who know you look at you sadly and say you're embarrassing yourself?

    Hmm? Tough call.

    It's laughable this is even open for discussion, really.
     
  12. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Let me ask you this, at the peak of their powers... who was better?
     
  13. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't count them as PRIME losses. I count them as losses. The question is who had the better career/leaves the better legacy.

    Look at their careers as a whole. Whose would you rather have?
     
  14. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I like the Oscar win because it was at JMW, and Floyd was completely outsized, in terms of height, reach and weight.

    On the other hand, Oscar was faded, he'd been inactive, and Floyd only scraped by him by the last few rounds after he'd gassed.

    Roy's domination over Toney was great, but there's the weight loss.
     
  15. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I didn't say they were his best wins. You said Oscar was Floyd's best win. And I said he beat guys who were better than Oscar.

    Who cares what his single BEST win was? Muhammad Ali never beat anyone as good as Muhammad Ali, did he? So should Frazier and Norton be rated higher than Ali because they had a better single win?

    This thread is about career legacy. Not who had the single best career win.

    You know who had the best career - Mayweather has by MILES. Now you're trying to bash me for pointing out the obvious. I'm about done with you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019


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