Robert Helenius vs Joe Frazier

Is helenius on a george foreman level though? this maybe apply for guys like vitali or lennox but im not sure that helenius will be there as well.

 

Obviously Frazier never fought anyone the size of a Helenius. Helenius fought someone similaire in height to Frazier and nowere near as good in any way as him in Peter. Peter was drawing even in that fight come the finish. If Helenius is as bored as he was against Peter he won't last 2 rounds and would be lucky to get out of the first. Even if the Finnish giant is as aggressive as usual Frazier wont have problems slipping that range finder jab and will take him out in a few rounds. Mismatch

 

Hi, I'm glad you've taken an interest in boxing. It really is a great sport and we value every single new fan it gets. Obviously it's bit intimidating being a new fan of such a well established sport like boxing, but your understanding of the sweet science will certainly grow once you watch your first couple of fights.

Remember, there are many knowledgeable posters on this site, so do not hesitate to ask if you have any questions.

 

wrong! Joe Frazier fought top 10 contenders 6'4 250lb Buster Mathis and 6'5 225lb Joe Bugner. He beat both of them!

 

Psst, one of those is 2 and half inches smaller and the other one is 20lbs lighter.

 

I am sooo glad you mentioned that oversight that revisionist matchmakers fail to realize. They seem to think that any big man can do exactly what Foreman did to Frazier by just being big and a puncher. Saying that Robert Helenius=George Foreman is a big no-no. He would have crushed Sam Peter just like Peter crushed Nagy Aguilera if that were the case.

Peter does not possess the crowding style that Frazier did and is easier to tag(doesn't employ consistent bobbing and weaving while coming in) nor is he as relentlessly busy and well versed with setting up and landing inside blows like Joe was. Hell he doesn't work the body like Joe either. All he has on Joe is being slightly taller with a bigger frame that carries 30+ more lbs than it should.

Helenius lacks the confidence to throw the uppercut with Frazier on the way in like George did. He'll have to throw shots with Joe in the pocket and risk getting tagged in order to catch him bobbing and weaving. He makes one mistake and a left hook to the chin is on it's way(such as missing a right uppercut or dropping his right to throw one). Yes Helenius is far bigger but Joe has chopped big guys down before(and much of it comes from excellent bodywork)

With only 15 pro fights and little experience against such a style, I see him being stopped late. If he lasts the distance then you can attribute that to the big size advantage. Helenius is not at the level of Buster Mathis or Joe Bugner at this stage of his career.

 

There is a good reason why you got the reply Shaunster gave you. A prime Foreman couldn't keep a prime Frazier down...George Foreman. He "performed terribly against big men with beastly punching power"? You mean that one guy he fought? George mother****ing Foreman? Adebisi sodomized O'Reilly. You just didn't hear about it in your world.

 

:yep

 

Taller yes. You can measure that. Harder punch and better chin? Much harder to measure those attributes, especially in only 15 pro fights whereas Mathis(34 pro fights and stopped twice) and Bugner(83 pro fights and stopped 4 times) had far longer careers for their chins to be tested.

What would be your reasoning for Helenius having a harder punch(reasonable considering his size and KO ratio) or better chin?(much harder to measure between a guy of this era with a limited pro career in an abysmal HW division compared to two guys in a MUCH better HW era who had many times more fights against legendary competition)

 

By the time Frazier fought Foreman, he was essentially shot anyway. He was nowhere near his absolute peak of the Foster and Ali fights. He had a list of medical problems as long as your arm and we never, ever saw anything close to prime Frazier after the first Ali bout. The third was probably the closest but he was against a fellow battle worn opponent and they cancelled each others faults out, giving us a great fight. As far as Frazier goes though, he never reached his single fight peak of the first Ali fight. People love to reference the Foreman bout when talking about Frazier, but I've never seen a world class fighter reduced so much after a single bout.

Probably largely because he fought on pure fire. That was the reason he was such a great fighter because he had a burning intensity that was unrivaled by any heavyweight in history. Not one heavyweight was as determined, as focused, as resilient or as mentally tough as Frazier, not even the likes of Marciano or Jeffries. He was something else but Ali was his ultimate opponent and once he had beaten him, what else could he do? He could never find the fire that made him such a formidable opponent. For the third fight, it's part of the reason why Frazier looked better because he was fighting on hatred.

Physically and mentally, Frazier was never the same post-Ali I. He took a beating which put him in the hospital and he would never come close to the same mental strength he had going into that fight. To judge him on any performance post-1971 shows a lack of intelligence.

I didn't write this post for the thread starter, either, but anyone with some boxing intelligence who thinks it's true about Frazier against big men. It's simply not the case. As for the thread, Frazier knocks him out early, but that's all I'll say about that. The entire argument for this ludicrous thread is based off something which isn't even true.

 

Helenius? No way, a pre-71' Frazier would have KTFO quickly. No doubt in my mind Joe would have caught him backing up with that massive left hook. Ali took a beating in that first fight, watch it and see, only a guy with the mental toughness of Ali could have stood up to those hooks and massive body shots for 15 rounds, I'm amazed he did, but you could clearly see those shots to the body were really hurting him bad. Helenius is no where near that level of fighter and I don't suspect he ever will be, though I do like him as a rising prospect in the current HW division.

 

:happy Very VERY well said. I beg to differ on Frazier's will to win compared to Marciano. Marciano would be the only HW in history with desire that could match Frazier's. They both made up for being short heavyweights by being relelntless and mentally unbreakable. That is why I'm glad when Ring magazine made it's 50 Fights We Never Saw special issue that they made a mythical matchup between Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano. Both would lock horns in the center of the ring and it would be a Corrales-Castillo 1/Frazier-Quarry style war until Marciano's face could take no more. Frazier's face would be puffed up like a tomato but he'd be the victor by TKO by the 7th or 8th round.

 

Who is Joe Fraizer? for 1,000 Alex.