Instead of 70-78, which was roughly Durán's entire LW career, we'll see Hands of Stone go from 1940 to 1948. The guys he'd face are: Bob Montgomery Lew Jenkins Beau Jack Willie Joyce Ike Williams Sammy Angott LW Sugar Ray Robinson LW Kid Gavalin LW Johnny Bratton Just to fit in with the schedule at the time, we'll say trilogies with these guys. How does he do? Is he just as consistent? Who does he lose to? Why? But the question which intrigued me enough to make the thread, how great would this make him? P4P, at LW, whatever? *I didn't include Armstrong or Ambers, as Lou and Henry did next to nothing at 135 during the 40s, and they split their fights in the 30s.
For me, a trilogy between Duran of the Buchanan fight and Montgomery would be awesome. The swarming from both sides would be great to behold, I think the workrate of Duran, and overall class is what decides this one. Not to mention, Bob could be pretty inconsistent, I fancy him to lose all 3 tbh. Duran UD 3/3 From what I know of Jenkins, he pretty much got stomped by all or the elite swarmers he fought, and he was never really on that level. Duran TKO 3/3 Another awesome set of match ups. Battlin' Bo was a bad man. I can see him going Durán a loss here ala DeJesus. A young Hands of Stone would exchange violently with Beau and should come out on top, but I can just picture in my head Jack landing a left, just like DeJesus and getting the better of him over a short distance. Durán's class and probably rage over losing, if he was to, would make sure he rectified anything. Jack ain't getting stopped though, his chin was titanium. Only stopped in his prime by Ike Williams(in one of the most savage combos ever seen) and a dislocated knee. Durán UD 2/3 I'm no expert in Joyce's style, I believe I've read he was an upright boxer type, but I've never found footage, and I've never found footage. What I do know however, is that he had massive trouble with a past prime Armstrong, but posed massive issues for a prime Ike Williams, Duran is obviously more of an Armstrong type guy, and is definitely definitely better than Joyce. I'm going for Durán winning clearly, but I'm not sure on how clear. Joyce is another guy with an iron mandible. Durán UD 3/3 Toughest ask of Roberto here imo, aside from Robinson & Gavalin. Williams was a hard hitting, aggressive boxer-puncher with a high workrate. Durán's got his hands full, but I still think he does well here. Ike was a beast, but he wasn't bulletproof and was stopped by lesser swarmers than Durán(keep in mind were roughly at the 75/76 Durán now), I think Durán would use his jab to offset Williams' right and counter him. He'd have to turn and smother Ike alot but Durán was... well... Durán! He'd turn the trick imo, and win a decision (or 2)& get a stoppage. Gonna give the benefit of the doubt to Ike and say that the extreme schedule and hardship of the era causes Durán to drop one. Duran UD&TKO 2/3 Ahhh my two favourite LWs. This would be a great fight, but let's be honest. Angott is basically a worse Duran. Durán should win this series relatively easily. Angott's workrate, bob and weave and smothering gives Duran issues but ultimately falls short all 3 times. Angott was another iron walker from this time. I don't think Sam gets stopped here, but you can't rule it out. Durán UD 3/3 This content is protected Obviously very hard to gauge with no footage at LW. Robinson vs Duran would be an electric clash of styles, and a green Robinson without the snap he had at 147 would have issues keeping Duran off him imo, and also would also fall victim to his own lack of an inside game and defensive deficiencies. I've saved the DeJesus 3 Duran for this fight, and I think his better fundamentals, stylistic edge and experience actually nicks this one. As close as a match up ever imo. I doubt I'd be surprised at any outcome, but I think Robinson would fight Durán's fight more often than not, and Durán gets the better of it. Duran SD 2/3 WARRRRRR. Awesome fight, Durán wins a very close decision again. Gavalin was very very hard to outbrawl but he hadn't come into his own yet. I think Durán outworks him and lands the harder shots. He'd have to turn Gavalin later on the rounds and bank them early on, probably similar to the Leonard fight in terms of the great action but have lulls consistently. Duran SD 2/3 Just... Levels. Duran beats a WW Bratton clearly, let alone a LW one. Bratton was a tough mutha****er though. Durán UD 3/3 _____________ 3 wins over Montgomery, Jenkins, Joyce, Bratton & Angott and 2 over Jack Williams, Robinson & Gavalin. For a snippet of an 8 year career, that's GOAT ****. Also, he's my #2 LW right now, that would make him #1.
Duran vs a Lightweight Sugar Ray Robinson is what interests me here. Robinson as a Lightweight was a still a beast, capable of beating lots of top and even all time fighters, and it is the division where he originally learnt his pro trade and really experienced pro Boxing. He had a large height and reach advantage, with that obviously blinding speed, great footwork both athletically and fundamentally, though he was still learning in the ring IQ department, not that it was bad; it was far from it. He also hadn't fully matured into his power and had obviously not become a fully relaxed technican. Duran at Lightweight was one of the peak fighters to ever exist in Boxing history; a monster atop of the mountain, so to speak. As he grew and matured, his animalistic fighting instinct, thudding concrete power, natural timing and sturdy chin were further complimented with a solid, ATG technical foundation that separated him from every fighter around at the time; his peak performance in DeJesus III showcasing the instantaneous flow of movements during an attack characterized by 'Mushin'. This was truly his zenith as his fighter with just about every attribute physically and mentally. However, if Duran boxes as in the third DeJesus bout, he allows Sugar Ray Robinson into the fight early. There would be some masterful exchanges and Boxing set up, with Ray winning the early rounds on his length, positioning and advantage in speed, but Duran would slowly, instinctively figure his man out, and conjure up a way to break down the longer man's distance and in turn negate and break down Ray's Boxing, as he knows he cannot let Ray establish his distnace. This version would win a well deserved UD, with hard beginnings and moments from Ray throughout, but ultimately being defeated by a peak fighter who is against a pre-peak one. A younger Duran, in my opinion, would storm out and win the openers, bulldozing with fierce aggression and power and constant, smothering pressure. However, in the middle rounds I can actually see Ray coming on, establishing his long jab, left hook and right, and each round Duran wins, and loses, being bitter and hard fought. This would be a very punishing fight for both, though I would expect Duran to earn the decisive decision, which is possibly split. All in all, still an ATG fantasy match up.
Great thread @George Crowcroft and great posts from you and @roughdiamond too. A couple of things I thought about based on your comments: 1. Duran and conditioning - not such a problem at lightweight as it was for him later but I do wonder what the toll would be on him facing this level of opposition with this degree of frequency. After all, Duran went 2 out of 3 with DeJesus who is no greater than many of the names mentioned in your rundown and by his own admission wasn't in championship shape for his first fight. Could he keep in shape and maintain his discipline with this level of opposition? Not saying he couldn't but the best of 3 makes me think he might drop the odd decision, even against guys you'd think were not as great as him but were still pretty damn great (Bob Montgomery?) 2. The Robinson fights have got me intrigued! We're talking peak Duran in 1978 (circa DeJesus III) against a young (20ish year old) SRR. Hard to know exactly how good Robinson was at this point but the evidence suggest he was pretty damn good! Certainly good enough to go 20-0 at the weight in his first 10 months as a pro and beat then-NBA world lightweight champion Sammy Angott by clear decision in a non-title 10 rounder at the end of that run. Add the fact that he handed Marty Servo a first career defeat and had back-to-back wins over Fritzie Zivic only five or six fights after the Angott win - granted, those wins were at Welter - and it shows that even if he was not quite prime yet, he was capable of beating a very high level of opponent that early in his career. Duran of course would be another level again, particularly in his 1978 incarnation. But I think SRR takes at least one of three and I'll hedge on one of the others being a draw too. That to me reflects Robinson's greatness - that if he could have maintained his frame inside the lightweight limit, he'd have been untouchable there, even against some of those great 40s lightweights. Anyway, interesting stuff. Oh, and if Duran completed that schedule as you describe it here, never mind being no. 1 all time at lightweight, he'd probably be no. 1 all-time p4p too! Who is your number 1 all-time lightweight by the way, George? Benny Leonard?
Yeah I can see that. Armstrong was a beast. For my money though, peak Duran takes that one. Some underrated guys H2H though, Carlos Ortiz and Packey McFarland. Both of these are elites in the division. Could beat both Duran and Armstrong at their best imo. LW is an awesome division. Sammy Angott gets undersold too in my (fanboy) opinion.
