Roberto Duran v.s Ike Williams

IMO, this is exactly what made Duran so effective. He perfected combining his offense and defense better than any fighter I have ever witnessed. I've stated this often about him. He was the best defensive fighter ever for one who was so aggressive. During the early 70's when he first became lightweight champion he never quite grasped his defense the way he would late in his reign and beyond. The recklessness of his early days would gradually vanish as he gained experience. Brown and Arcel also had a lot to do with Duran's superb ability to attack and think about the offense coming his way. They never wanted him to go into full defensive mode where he was covering up and not countering. They both dealt with his rawness as a fighter like two scientists. Tame the rawness and refine him technically.

Duran's third fight against De Jesus, Palamino and Leonard are the ones that really define his style and overall effectiveness around his prime.

 

Great posts by the both of you. I know I'm in the minority here, but I honestly think Duran looked better against Palomino and Leonard at WW than in his third fight with Dejesus at LW, which usually gets so much praise.

 

I think I join you in that minority.

Not really because I think Duran was a better fighter at welterweight, it's just that I think he hardly ever red-lined his game at lightweight.

 

I always took for granted that because Dejesus III was probably his best performance at his best weight, it was basically Roberto at his finest.

But no doubt Leonard is his best win in terms of legacy and against Palomino he just looked superb and that is actually is one of my favourite Duran fights to watch because I find I can squeeze the 10 rounds in more often...I will probably always consider DeJesus III his pinnacle performance because for so long I just thought it was but you guys have really got me reconsidering that.

 

Duran wasn't on De Jesus' chest for any sustained spells if memory serves me correctly. He was mainly on the outside for the vast majority of the fight. He ocassionly dropped inside, punched to the body and head, then quickly increased the range. His jab was certainly used more throughout that particular fight than the Palamino and Leonard contests. His punch economy was rather flawless to say the least. Very seldom was he coming forward at full throttle.

It's certainly a fight which highlights Duran's patience, ring generalship, boxing ability, defense, and calculated attacking.

 

He did look almost seamless, but at the same time, I didn't see the intensity there he showed against Leonard for instance. Why? He didn't have to. He was handily in control the whole way through.

Even in the second Dejesus fight, the intensity was there, but the defense wasn't and largely I think it was due to disdain. Duran just thought I'm going to outgut this guy and I don't care what's thrown back at me, it's irrelevant.

The Leonard fight brought out the best in him because he was facing such a threat. He red-lined his game right there.

I think it would have been scary to see Duran if he had a Whitaker to contend with at lightweight.

Likewise though, I think it would have been scary to see what a prime Pea would have done if facing a pumped up Duran at 135.

 

I think that it depends on how you look at it.

The Lightweight division was Duran's division... in my opinion, he owned that weight class against anyone, ever. Duran was the ultimate lightweight fighter, the most dangerous combination of skill and ferocity there ever was --with the best corner of any other LW to boot. Also, against LWs, Duran was almost always the stronger man in there. Hector Thompson, an Australian aborigine Duran fought in 1973, may have been the only exception.

Duran did not have the physical disadvantages he would forever after he left the LW division... and remember, his height and reach were average even at LW.

However, Duran was never more inspired in his life than he was when he faced Leonard in June of '80. He was 29 years old and at the peak of his puglistic powers. That was his peak fight in my opinion, but it was against a larger man and he was in a division 12 lbs north of where he actually belonged.

Perhaps a good question that can help you decide when Duran was more formidable may be "how many LWs could beat 1978 Duran vs. how many WWs could beat 1980 Duran."

 

The hostilities during the build-up to the third De Jesus fight far exceeded the two previous fights. Duran was in the gym and had a Puerto Rican sparring partner who said a couple of things towards him that he found offensive. All hell broke loose and Duran, amazingly, took his gloves off and attacked the sparring partner and his trainer. It was meant to have been a full scale riot inside the gym for as long as it lasted.

PS: I have the full article and all the details on that bust-up inside the gym. Pretty funny. I'll try and fetch it from my cupboard sometime.

And I'm sure himself and De Jesus were fighting at the weigh-in before their third fight. He probably had even more distain inside him coming into that fight than the second one.

The intensity was there like never before, but he just fought in a very disciplined way. Distain? Yes, but controlled and almost hidden.

 

Yes, but don't forget that Duran actually lost the first fight to DeJesus. You don't think that would have stoked the embers of revenge just a little?

Talk is one thing, when you get beaten up it's another.

In any case, I think DeJesus was a little spent by the time of the third fight, and Duran didn't have to push himself to the limit to get the better of him. It was obvious to me that Duran could have upped the ante in the third fight if he had to. He was in cruise control though, and flowing nicely.

 

Obviously. However, more 'needle' was between them leading up to the third fight. Evening the score was imprortant to him, no question. But coming out of the series 2-1 was maybe as equally as motivational. Duran definitely had more distain built up inside him for the third fight. Perhaps it wasn't burning as wildly as it was throughout the second fight. Certainly during the fight it wasn't. He was more experienced and controlled as a fighter within the ropes.

 

I think the fact that the fight was at 147, above Duran's best weight, and against the second best WW of all time makes it all the more impressive. But moreso than anything, it was simply the skillset and effectiveness he showed throughout the fight, particularly on the inside, where he did the best work I've ever seen a fighter do.

Also, I actually think Dejesus II was arguably a better performance, and that his defense in that fight was underrated. His greater offensive output makes that a bigger favorite of mine than the third fight. Duran had a lot of great performances at LW as he was ad******g through different styles and stages of his development.

 

But we are matching him at Lightweight.Not at Welter.

 

The last thirty seconds. Round 2. Brawl in Montreal. Talk about defense and offense flowing together while coming forward.

I remember Duran advancing with a sort of clawing powerless left to the head, and Leonard leaned back in a herky-jerky way, just a tad to fiercely and an early indicator he was gunshy, then came back with a wild left hook. The calm, matter-of-fact way in which Duran ducked under the hook while already throwing a hard right to the body is beautiful. Just so fluid. Leonard steps back after soundly losing the exchange, Duran steps in leisurely -- range finder jab, BAM -- overhand right. Leonard falls into the ropes. Next order of business - Duran pushes Leonards arms down. Leonard can't go any way but hook and that he does -- everything he has into it, too, but Duran seemed to already be ducking before the punch was even visible. Not dipping far -- just enough to slip it cleanly. Economical. Precise. Pugilistic poetry.

Art in the square ring.

(I am aware I have a dysfunctional affinity for Duran in the ring -- sue me :smooch)

 

Obviously Duran would be more formidable at lightweight due to strength/power issues, but my point is merely that he never really redlined his abilities at lightweight because he was so comfortably above his foes. That's why I said that if he had a guy at lightweight that could REALLY push him to the limit we would have seen a Duran even better than the Duran who did push himself to the limit at 147 against Ray.

I also think Pernell Whitaker would have been capable of some freaky stuff at lightweight if we saw him with a great fighter there to push him to reveal everything that he had. We almost had it with Chavez but the WBC and Jose Suliaman screwed Pea out of the title, Julio faced Ramirez instead, moved up to 140 and the rest is history.

 

Don't get me wrong, I see both points, but was thinking out loud about it.

Duran really hated Leonard for a while there, probably right up until the moment he left the ring in Montreal. That was monster motivation that he would never have again. And he may have not had that level of motivation for anyone else given the circumstances surrounding Duran's envy of Leonard's golden celebrity.