Roberto Duran vs Arguello, Whitaker, Chavez, Castillo and Floyd at 135

You are making Trump look extremely down to earth and measured, trust me.

 

It came to my mind. It was not about opinions or who is right, it was about how someone deals with discussions on a message board about boxing. All of a sudden insults are thrown in there. It reminded me of Trump.

 

When Duran beat Ray, he was not elite. He was on the second defense of his first title. He beat Benitez, but was banged up.. yet that was the experience. He still did not know the whole game, and Duran taught him boxing was inside and outside of the ring. I watched Duran fight many times. he is a master at looking for weakness and exploited it from the start. But if he does not from the start, he loses. He was a front runner. And the elite all beat him. Did the elites not all beat Duran?

You don't listen. You are saying Duran was above his weight. Why am I saying Duran fought at 154 before Hearns, Benitez and Ray and that he was having trouble making weight at 135 and fought tuneups that high up in weight? The weight you say he moved up and fought these big elites.. Yet they were not at that weight yet.

I am comparing Hearns beating Virgil Hill. Yes in the days of hind sight HIll looks bad now, but when Hearns was going to fight him Hill was undefeated and had 10 title defenses, and his competition was not much less than Duran's was at lightweight really for his defenses, just that he did not beat them as convincingly, he beat them with his jab and speed, and Hearns out jabbed him and out sped him 6 years older and 14 years into his career. I think that is a significant point I am making. I think Hill is underrated. Did you know Hill has more title fights than Duran did? Defended his title more times than Duran at 175 and 190? You are just following what anyone says, you are not using your own thoughts on fighters. Just the typical opinion.. If someone tells you Hill is overrated you think that, if they say Duran is the best ever you say that too. It is not that simple. If you study boxing and you see Duran had a wide stance, and guys who were faster could counter him and move and punch around him as they pivoted, yet guys I the lower weights did not have that ability, I am somewhat wrong to mention this..

I can mention Larry. He wanted Spinks and called him out and then he lost the first fight, when everyone thought including me that Spinks would get demolished. And I think Spinks edged that second fight. Fact is Larry was bigger and should have knocked him out. Spinks moved up and won with versatility.. He didn't always fight the same way. The great fighters have to be versatile. Duran was not versatile. He either had a good style in front of him or he didn't.

Elites whom he never fought at 135. So you guys are saying, he would beat elites like Floyd and Pernell easily or any elite at 135 or other weight, but the fact is he never beat the elites at any weight, except Ray who was still rather inexperienced when he fought Duran. Ray would beat Duran easily any time out after that first fight. The point I made is Duran did not beat elites for anyone to say he would easily beat anyone like Floyd or Pernell or Shane. He fought them, but he didn't win, regardless of weight. I still think Arguello might have shocked Duran.

 

Ok, so Ray wasn't "elite" when Duran beat him but suddenly was 5 months later due to just one single solitary fight.

Was Duran peak at 135? This is a very simple yes or no answer.

So Duran fighting at 154 with a high level of body fat before Hearns, Benitez and Ray makes him as big or bigger naturally? Even tho he was older and at a much later career stage? A one off fight in 78 against a guy with 4 fights LOL! He was comfortably making 147 two years later. He went 152 1/2 against Moore 4 years later. Etc, etc, etc.

Was he hitting 160 before Hagler as well?

It's staggering you could use a 1978 bout he had against a guy 1-3-0 as evidence he wasn't at weight and size disadvantages against Hearns and co when he'd fought the fight of his life at 135 just 8 months earlier. So much for being weight drained!

Is Hill an "elite"?

So if hindsight exposes someone as not as good as we thought, or they didn't reach the expected heights we should ignore that? Just when Duran is involved or?

Many proclaimed Breland the next SRR. How do you rates his conquerers? Elites?

Because myself and the vast majority consider Duran as highly as we do we are just following typical opinion? You know better than the majority of both fans and sages? Pompous much?

I have never said Hill was overrated. You are the one trying to bracket him in with the Hagler's and SRL's and Benitez's not me.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

What was Spinks going to do, slug and trade with the much bigger more powerful men? Jesus Christ.

Spinks fought an excellent fight and Holmes was way over the hill (as well as lazily prepared), simple.

Yes. A guy who got to 71-1 with umpteen defenses and a win over an ATG was extremely limited and depended on his opponent being well suited or otherwise he had no chance. Thankfully he found 70 well suited guys and one who was a few months off elite.

I cannot think of a more difficult match stylistically for Arguello at 135 excepting Whitaker. Duran would be a nightmare.

 

You should laugh. It is better for you. I will answer this when I am sober. Had a bit of a drink here. But still listen, I say what I think. Duran is great, but what elites did he beat. You guys figure that out. I am going to go have some whiskey shots here. It is about logic. I am not trying to **** anyone off. Beating elites is the key. If you don't what is your legacy? beating bums and being great at it? YOu know what. Spinks could have been blasted out. he wasn't that is versatile. Think about it.

 

that lesson Duran taught him was a the lesson Ray leaned and helped him beat Hagler. Not Hearns, but Hagler. use all the advantages you have.. Duran did not beat many elites and you know it, and your whole argument is one fight he won over Ray? Yet you ignore the win Ray had over him, or rather two.. Come on. You know better than that. Stop the denial.

 

listen, that right hand for Alexis was the equalizer. not a Hearns right but a very good one. Duran is stylistically a nightmare as you say, and then Alexis lands a long right and takest he nightmare out of it.

 

I'd agree with all the above - except Chavez. I think Chavez beats him by a whisker.

 

I'd say duran reached an absolute peak when he fought Leonard the first time and never quite got that good again.

I think there was also something in the psyche of each that meant the cold, calculating Leonard could always step up an extra notch in a rematch - while the more emotional Duran could not, whether he won or lost the original.

I love both of them as fighters, but when Duran was at his best, he was better.

 

Put simply, he isn't.

Floyd's career was based, in essence on staying away from his man, single potshot from distance and immediately throw his arms and hug.

He wouldn't be able to keep Duran off. Or Chavez for that matter.

The infighting skills of both were not things Floyd was faced with in his career.

Both would beat him, probably by TKO, probably round 8 or 9.

 

his peak was when he won, but when he lost he even has the excuse he was slipping? He gets an excuse for anything. My argument is he never beat or knocked out a real elite, who was champ at the time or near winning a title.

 

he had the speed to keep them off and counter. Speed is everything in boxing for the elites. If you really look at it.

 

"his peak was when he won, but when he lost he even has the excuse he was slipping?"

Not what I said at all. I said Duran in Leonard I was better than Duran in Leonard II. And Duran in Leonard I was simply better than Leonard. Who's making excuses? I know this is the internet, but try using a bit of common sense.

"My argument is he never beat or knocked out a real elite, who was champ at the time or near winning a title."

Your argument is very obviously wrong.

He beat Leonard when Leonard was an elite fighter.