Roberto Duran vs. Pernell Whitaker at 135

No, I don't agree at all. The clips of Duran don't just display his slick defence they also displays his other slick attributes. They show him avoid shots front and back foot while engaging his opponents and countering slickly. Sure he got cuffed a few times but that's because he's engaging at the same time as he utilises defence. Duran shows a bigger variety of slickness than Pea.
Peas highlights are almost pure defence, as slick as you will see anywhere. Outrageous really. I've already said Pea is the slicker fighter on the back foot and more flashy/****y with it. My point is~ all round Duran is slicker and the clips show Durans all round the slicker fighter. Look at his clever faint variety, slick countering variety, slick fluidity between offence and defence, slick head movement on the inside and outside. You have to remember Duran does nearly everything in the danger zone which imo is much harder to employ than Peas defence. Knowing it's harder to do and Duran is so masterful at it imo makes it slicker.
I will defo agree the clips of Pea look slicker defensively and more brash and bold but Duran has a lot of cute moves people don't even see. Subtle things like faints and turning opponents. If you really sit down and study Duran's style he is most definitely slicker than Pea all round. More dynamic.

Slicker than Pea on the back foot, no chance. Slicker all round, yes.

 

Absolutely agree. I was trying to make this point earlier but you did a better job of it. If you are going to engage as much as Duran did you are going to get hit. But he is really good at minimizing the damage he receives while maximizing the damage he gives.

 

Duran would win a razor close -- and possibly controversial -- decision. Whittaker would give him fits. I think Duran would prevail, though, because he was almost as gifted a boxer as he was a puncher/slugger. Sweet Pea was a better boxer than Duran, but not necessarily by a huge margin. Duran, of course, was the vastly superior infighter. Roberto's power would be a driving factor here, too. Whittaker would succeed in keeping the fight at center ring, but Duran would always force the action, and he'd win more rounds by landing an extra body punch here and there. It would be a hard fight to score.

 

I agree with most everything you say here.. Problem is, that still doesn't make him slicker than pea. You forget that Pea often times was right in the danger zone himself.. Right in the pocket and moving his upper body.. circling with his lower body.. dodging two or three shots in a row while countering ALL WHILE IN THE POCKET. You seem to think Pea only fought of his back foot which is simply not true. McGirt.. Chavez.. Hoya.. all show pea in the pocket with great fighters and still making them miss over and over while countering beautifully. Everything you say about Duran is true.. and I do believe he mixed offense and defense better than pea.. but that isn't slickness.. that fluidity.. that's mixing it up.. however it's not how we typically define slick. It could be a variation of slick.. but not how the term is generally used. How it's generally used is to describe a fighter that his hard to hit.. great radar.. great at countering and generally making your opponent look amateurish.. That's slick.. and pea was simply the slicker fighter.

 

This thread is a natural for our resident highbrow writer, Stonehands, who is a huge Duran afficionado. He probably missed this thread because he is hanging out in some intellectual writer's parlor, enjoying fine boxing talk with other highbrows while smoking cigars and sipping cognac.

Stonehands....?

 

I don't think Pea only fought on the back foot. You misunderstand. I always make a point in telling Floyd fans Pea is a better defensive fighter than Floyd because he was braver and could utilise his defence in the pocket while being offensive, unlike PBF. That's for another thread though.
I feel you and other fans make the mistake of thinking that only defence and intelligent pot shooting/countering equals slick. Just because that's what's generally used to describe slicksters it doesn't make it right. There's far more to slick than just those attributes.
Duran was much more aggressive in the pocket compared to Pea so his defence had to be razor sharp. He was ridiculously good in the pocket, showing slickness in every area. More so than Pea, who was slick but more in a fractured way. Duran was constant and fluid with his slickness.
So no, Slick doesn't just mean hard to hit/great radar/great countering. The definition of slick is 'operating in an impressively smooth and efficient way' This defines Duran more than Pea imo.
As for having a great Radar. Durans radar was instant, he fought more on instinct. Everything was instantly after each other and done as slick as you'll see on film. His counters were mostly combos disguised and mixed in with faints and damn he was accurate. Much more slick and impressive than Peas more economical, patient, opportunistic approach to offence imo.

It's just my opinion on the subject. Not many will agree with my opinion Duran is all round more slick than Pea :good

 

this is actually a great thread that really makes you think... Knee jerk is to say, Duran ! But, you really have to look close and remember what a slick and sharp fighter Sweet Pea was. And he didn`t try and `fluff` his way to victory like PBF would. he would stay there, right in the pocket and pick your pocket ! If there was a guy that you`d pick who could be problematic for Duran, it`s Whitaker... The edge here is that But,I still like Duran !

 

Some people may forget that Pernell Whitaker wasn`t really a mover once he settled into his prime. He fought in the pocket and was a great counterpucher. Great defense and he did use angles.

Duran was a great bodypuncher and he wore many fighters down to the body he stopped them in brutal fashion. I`m not saying Duran stops Whitaker but I think he can outscore him. The body attack setting up the head attack the way only Duran could.

 

Duran

 

I saw the thread, Kenmore, but Classic has done this many times over many pages. And now that I've read it I'm not sure what more I can add.

I haven't budged off of Duran beating Pernell, even though I never like disagreeing with salsanchez. Duran probably won't stop Pernell and there is always that slim and slender risk that Pernell could frustrate Duran and get him wild, but I'm very confident that Duran will not have the inhibition he had when he fought Leonard.

--that inhibition was power. Leonard hit hard enough to keep Duran honest and I think that is the big undiscussed factor behind his quitting in the rematch and quitting with his gloves up in the rubber match.

Pernell is like Malignaggi--a small-boned guy lacking mass in the right places and not designed to generate that whip-leverage. They're build like their bones are hollow.

Duran was (as was Mickey Walker who also did well against bigger guys -no coincidence if you think about. Similar physical dimensions combined with surprising skill). He simply wouldn't respect him and even if he was taken a bit out of his game and got caught, he's gonna shrug off the blows and keep on coming.

Another important factor that was also brought up is that Pernell isn't going to time Duran like he did stand-up fighters like De La Hoya. This isn't Pryor-Arguello. Duran was a master of feints and traps and could ruin the hell out of your timing himself. Pernell is not going to evade every shot and he is going to have to deal with Duran closing the distance very quickly, as well as mauling and sure shots getting through his defense.

That's the other big thing. Duran had legs then. He's gonna get at Pernell and that leaf in the wind style is going to mean less when Pernell is pinned in the corners.

So the question becomes "can Pernell keep him off?" The answer has to be no.

 

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't you say that this whole analysis pretty much also describes what would take place between Floyd and Duran, as well as Pea and Duran? Cause I tend to think the same thing would apply to Mayweather, it that I don't think he has enough pop in his punches to get Duran's respect and Duran would eventually end up mauling him.

 

The other thing to remember is that Sweet Pea could and did get dropped... And when your fighting a guy by the name of Manos de Piedra, that could pose a problem...

 

Agreed, good call.