I found an article about this online. Robinson was warned about the heat and advised by a doctor to take fluids before the Maxim fight. But he refused as he had never done it before. One look at Maxim's record should have told Robinson that the fight was going to go the distance. If he was already dehydrated when he set foot in the ring then it's all the more remarkable that he lasted 13 rounds in those conditions against a heavier opponent. If Robinson had paced himself just enough to still win the early rounds, how many rounds do you think he would need to do that for so he would have been able to finish the fight? I would say probably four or five. The article is about Archie Moore having to get down to 175 before fighting Bobo Olson but the information about Robinson starts about half way down. Here's the link: ARCHIE MOORE VS. AVOIRDUPOIS - Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com
Some old books claimed specific application of dehydration made you react faster and all. Pseudoscience naturally, but somewhat widespread.
First off nice post ! It's well known many fighters dried out but I was surprised to read Jeffries, Johnson and even Dempsey dried out for fights and their weights had to reflect it ...
But when a doctor is explaining to a fighter that he needs to take fluids and explains why, you'd think the fighter would listen.
What I never understood was, why Robinson, a man notorious for getting all the terms of a fight to his liking, was ok with scheduling a fight against a larger opponent in the summertime at Yankee stadium? The heat soared over 105, not to mention the lights which made things even hotter.... I don't get it.... He never factored any of this in? His cornermen/manager never advised him about any of these possibilities? It's true Maxim did not have an air conditioner in his corner either, but he was the bigger heavier guy, and all he had to do was stalk. Robinson was the one who was going to have to exert himself the most constantly moving.... Never got it....
I can only assume that he had a brief window of opportunity to fight Maxim. Robinson had beaten Graziano in April and any delay in facing Maxim could mean that Archie Moore would get a shot at the title instead. As a New York resident, Robinson would know that a June fight could see temperatures in the 80's but he must have thought he could deal with that. I've no doubt that he would have done given that he lasted 13 rounds in 100+ degree heat with no breeze. I'm sure he never anticipated such extreme heat when he signed the contracts, which was probably in May. There was a hot spell in June where the temperature got into the 90's a few times but it cooled off dramatically a couple of days before the fight. The temperature on the original fight date (the 23rd) peaked at only 64 degrees by which time it was raining, the fight was postponed for two days and the temperatures soared to new heights. The 25th and 26th turned out to be the two hottest days of the year. I don't understand why a bout would be postponed due to rain but not be postponed due to extreme heat that was a threat to life. I doubt that a fight would be allowed to go ahead nowadays in those temperatures.
I think you underestimate the conditions under which a fight would be allowed to take place today. Many outdoor fights over history and probably more recently than you think have been held in conditions similar to that, especially when you add the heat from TV lights and such. I’ve been at live events held in the July heat of Mississippi (90+ degrees with a heat index hovering around 100) on an outdoor asphalt parking lot where the bottom of your feet literally burned through your shoes while you walked across it. Or indoor buildings with no air conditioning in the summer in the Deep South. Not to mention how many fights in the Philippines, Central and South America, Africa, Australia, etc, have been held in their hottest months. You ask why they went forward with it? I don’t think the decision-makers said ‘people could die, let’s do it anyway.’ NYC didn’t come to a halt during those hot days. I’m sure there were construction workers and ditch diggers who sweated it out and were happy to have the paycheck. The promoters had hundreds of thousands of dollars at risk and had already postponed a couple of days … you don’t hold off indefinitely — what if it stayed hot for a week? All the people who traveled to town and got hotels and bought tickets are supposed to just shrug and go home after spending that money? Or drain their bank accounts staying and risk getting fired by calling the boss and saying ‘I’m just going to stay in New York til they get around to fighting … hold my job open for me’? Robinson and a fat, old referee are the only ones I’m aware of who had serious issues with the heat — 15 other guys fought on the same card in the same heat and I don’t remember reading about any of them dying or fainting from the heat. SRR is the greatest of all time, or at least one of them. But had he held on for a couple more rounds or had Maxim lost from heat exhaustion, nobody would raise a peep about the conditions.
I understand what you're saying but my point was partly about questioning a fight being stopped because of rain but not because of extreme heat. In such cases, I think the fight should be postponed. I've outlined my reasons below. But this wasn't just a fight being held in the hottest months, it was held during an extreme and unprecedented heatwave. It had never been so hot in New York that early in the year and wouldn't be again for at least another 65 years. I don't think fights should take place in such extreme conditions. If the conditions are more typical of the climate in general then this is less of an issue because participants and spectators are more acclimatised to them. I don't agree with this comparison. You're talking about colleagues who would be supporting each other rather than two boxers competing directly against each other. I don't know how good the weather forecasting was back then but the temperature cooled off significantly just two days later. If the forecasting had predicted that then I think it should have been postponed again. Anyone with a ticket who couldn't make the new date would be refunded and their absence would be filled by people who could make it either by purchasing tickets in advance or by paying at the turnstiles. The promoters would still do very well out of it. If the heat is a potential risk to life then the fight should be postponed. That is more important than any other factor. I don't agree with this comparison either. All the other fights were either four or six round bouts. Spectators passed out due to the heat. The referee had to be replaced after 10 rounds, I can't think of any other occasion where this happened. Robinson fell flat on his face, could not finish the fight (the only time in his career where this happened), was delirious and close to death. Yes, they would because spectators collapsed and the referee had to be replaced. Those on their own are major talking points.
Well to address a few of those: 1. OK, you want ‘non-supportive’ athletic competition on that date in NYC? The NY Giants baseball team played the Cincinnati Reds. The uniforms of those days were wool flannel. So they weren’t just wearing shorts. As near as I can tell, there were no heat-related incidents. They didn’t cancel nor postpone. They played. And as I mentioned, there were seven undercard bouts: 14 fighters, no mention anywhere of heat-related issues. I bet if you dug into it deeply you’d find some other stuff taking place in the heat on that exact date in the city. 2. You don’t acclimate to high heat unless you’re there for a while training in it. Your way would say set a ‘normal’ temperature for that place in that part of the calendar and postpone if it was outside the norm by some range. So how would you do that? If the temperature drops or rises 10 degrees from that norm? Fifteen? Twenty? The reason they postponed for rain was because it would hurt the gate. The promoters stage the fight. They go forward with it or postpone pretty much on the basis of whether the weather threatens the gate. It’s easy for you to say ‘wait a few days it would have cooled down’ — which they wouldn’t have known with forecasting available at that time, but you know from hindsight — but it’s not your money that’s at stake. It was theirs. Robinson didn’t object. Maxim didn’t object. Both were willing. The commission did not judge it to be life-threatening or they would have pulled the plug. You only think so because Ray — who according to this was told to hydrate by a DOCTOR (a medical expert whom one would expect to have knowledge of such things) … and Ray declined/refused. In short, he didn’t listen to his doctor and paid a price. I don’t think they should postpone fights if guys refuse to do what their doctor tells them. What if a modern fighter is told to eat carbs and he instead eats proteins … do we call the fight because it might impact his performance? No, we don’t. So Ray’s situation was self-inflicted by hubris or ignorance or stupidity. If he hydrates properly, there’s every reason to believe he makes it 15 rounds. Nobody else on the card had an issue. The ref wasn’t fit, period. There’s no record of the umpires in the baseball game (and the home plate guy is wearing heavy and hot layers of equipment) falling out. In fact, I have seen baseball games where an ump fell out from heat exhaustion … and they brought in a replacement and finished the game. Same with the fight here. If a fat, out-of-shape ref falls out in a 10-rounder in a card without a legend on it, should they stop the fight? Ray didn’t look like he was in any trouble when the ref vs. Maxim was replaced … and Ray would have surely raised hell if they just called the fight. 3. Maxim paced itself. Ray did not. Ray did not hydrate. Ray wasn’t a victim of the heat as much as he was a victim of his own poor pacing/strategy and not listening to the doctor. Those are the facts. Sorry the legend lost. If Maxim had fallen out, nobody would have put an asterisk beside Ray’s name when it mentioned him being a three-division champ. Nor should they because he miscalculated here.
I saw it. It was partially on the edge of page 13 and a Zeiss microscope was needed to view that article ... in full. No rules of boxing were violated, it mentioned, so fair play by Maxim's people.
If it was as hot during those events as it was during the fight, then they should have been postponed as well. The health of spectators and participants should always come first. I've already addressed that point when I talked about the scheduled length of the other fights. Did you just choose to ignore it? I was referring to conditions that 'are more typical of the climate in general'. Did you ignore that as well? Only if the weather conditions pose a potential threat to life... As I already said. Another comment you seem to have ignored. I addressed this when I mentioned the refunding of tickets and the subsequent purchasing of tickets by people who could attend. Yet another comment you've ignored. No. I think so because I believe that fighting in such extreme conditions is such potentially life threatening and the commission were wrong not to judge it that way. The fact neither Robinson nor Maxim objected doesn't alter that. They are fighters who want to fight, not medics who look at and understand the science or officials who apply their knowledge and experience. That's why we have doctors and officials to stop fights to protect fighters not only from their opponents but also from themselves and their own determination to carry on when it is no longer safe to do so. Neither do I. I never raised that point. So why are you raising it? Again, this is irrelevant because I never raised this point and it isn't even relevant to the discussion about hydrating in hot conditions. Possibly but the situation was still potentially life threatening. I don't believe the fight should have gone ahead in conditions where spectators collapse and the referee has to be replaced regardless of whether Robinson was hydrated. How many times have you ignored the point I made about the scheduled duration of the other fights? I think you just disregard facts that invalidate your argument. Rubbish. How many other times did he have to be replaced in his career? Zero. By that logic, a specific number of officials would have to collapse for the conditions to be deemed dangerous. A minority of spectators collapsed. You don't wait until you have a specific percentage of people passing out before recognising that the conditions aren't safe. That's got nothing to do with what I said. I said that the fight should have been postponed. I never said that it should have been stopped because Goldstein couldn't continue. Whether a fighter is considered a legend has nothing to do with any of this. I'm talking about safety as being the most important consideration and I've said it more than once but it looks like you chose to ignore that as well. Robinson never had any recollection of what happened after the ninth round. He was in a LOT of trouble and that was before Goldstein was replaced. I'm sure he would have done but as stopping the fight because the referee had to be replaced is of no relevance to anything I've said then I'm not sure why you're raising it for a second time. Yes, Maxim paced himself, Robinson didn't. But given that the city was in the midst of an unprecedented heatwave, spectators collapsed and Robinson nearly died from heat exhaustion, then I would say that he was a victim of the heat... Why do you say it like that? As I've already said, Robinson's status as a fighter has nothing to do with this. It's beginning to sound like you have some kind of agenda against him. That would explain why you've kept ignoring valid points that I've raised. I don't put an asterisk next to Maxim's name as the light-heavyweight champion after winning this fight. He was the rightful champion until he faced Archie Moore. Now, I've spent a long time answering your points and you’ve spent quite a bit of time ignoring mine. I'm happy to discuss and debate different points of view on this forum but I'm not going to continue doing it with people who deliberately ignore a lot of what I've said or bring up points that are of no relevance because that is a waste of my time. I'm going to leave it there. Thanks.
Geez. 1. The commission didn’t consider people’s health to be at risk. You decided decades later that they should have postponed it because Robinson couldn’t handle the heat. And it was because he didn’t hydrate after being told to do so by a doctor, so he put his own health at risk. (Or did you ignore my post addressing that?) Someone could pass out from the heat at 80 degrees. Should fights only be contested at 72 degrees, or between 70 and 72? Plenty of fights have taken place in hot climates. If you can’t handle the heat (like Ray), stay out of the kitchen. Nobody’s life was at risk in the baseball game. They toughed it out in their wool flannels. Probably got sweaty. Shouldn’t have been postponed … your only reason for saying it should have been is because Ray Robinson didn’t hydrate. (Or did you ignore my post addressing that?) Do you have some kind of scientific evidence you’re hiding that heat only kicks in after a certain number of rounds? Or is just ‘well Ray got faint after 12 so undercard fights don’t count for this?’ You realize those guys didn’t train for 15 rounds, so they should have been affected somewhere past the midpoint of their bouts if your point was valid. 2. I’m asking you for climate specifics. You can’t have a rule that ‘we will postpone the fight if the climate in general is different than it is on average.’ How different? How many years of average? Just temperature or barometric pressure and humidity. (Or did you ignore my post addressing that?) Care to do some research to show us other fights where the climate wasn’t in whatever zone near average you claim it should be for a fight to go forward? Which other fights in history should have been postponed because it was unseasonably hot or cold? There have probably been literally hundreds … surely there would be a list of ring deaths and near-deaths attributable to this phenomenon for your assertion to carry any weight. Lay out some medical evidence that a fighter’s life is more at risk if the temperature is greater than on average, and how much greater. Not just your idea that ‘well it’s usually not quite this hot in this place this time of year, better call it off.’ That’s baloney. 2. Obviously I didn’t ignore your theory that an equal number of people would have fought tickets. I addressed it. The actual promoters whose money was at risk (yours wasn’t) assessed that wasn’t the way to go. And you can’t postpone indefinitely. They didn’t know the weather days later like you know what happened in hindsight decades later. Screwing the ticket-buying public isn’t good business (so what if you traveled to the Super Bowl and spent money on hotels and such, we’ll hold it in a week or two and refund your ticket money … what about their hotels and transportation, should the promotion reimburse for that too? You have no idea what goes into putting on a live event and how much rides on it coming off. (Or did you ignore my post addressing that?) 3. LOL. Now you want the medics to call off the fight to save Robinson, who didn’t heed the advice of the doctor who told him to rehydrate. He should have drank some water. (Or did you ignore my post addressing that?) 4. The ref collapsing has no bearing on whether the fight should have taken place. Yet you bring it up time and again. (And a ‘minority of spectators’ — how many and how good was their health? Ray was a prime world-class athlete.) Why? Because no one knew at the time they decided to go forward with the fight that the ref would collapse, so that can only have a bearing when the ref actually collapsed … so you’re arguing without saying so that it should have influenced a decision to go forward with the fight … but AT THE TIME, when the ref fell out Robinson was fine, so what in my blue heaven does it have to do with anything? That’s why I brought it up … because YOU did, repeatedly. I’ll leave it at this. Ray didn’t die. He ignored a doctor’s advise and didn’t hydrate. That’s not a reason to postpone a fight. That IS the reason he had difficulties.
