Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

Because you're also saying Hopkins was just as worthy when he wasn't. He hadn't fought anybody that was or had ever been considered a world class opponent. Gavilan fought Robinson himself, looked superb and was granted a shot at the title as any good champion should afford.

Fair.

It is reasonable, considering all factors involved (such as longevity as you note). You're reasonable. I agreed with several of your points in the recent SRL/SRR thread debate when several people were dishing out the haterism abuse Leonard's way, and I see them here too. I just don't think it's a FACT Hopkins was a better win. That's what triggered the response.

 

Am I the only one getting inappropriately aroused by bodhi's avatar?

Wait, what was this thread about again...

 

Ok. Then we seem to be pretty much agreed. All this seems reasonable to me.

 

He was very good, yes.
I just think he was better a few years later after he'd won the championshiip.
In 1993 Hopkins was a solid contender with very good ability. He improved after that. As he took on more good fighters and fought more championship 12-rounders he grew in stature and ability, imo.

 

Yes. But the same is true of Jones.

And it's also likely that Gavilan improved, as well as matured physically, somewhat after meeting Robinson. But Robinson was by all accounts at his very peak when he met Gavilan.

To summarise: Pre-peak Jones w pre-peak Hopkins should at least equal peak SRR w pre-peak Gavilan. Especially since Jones' win seems to have been more comfortable than Robinson's.

It's hard to say anything for sure without footage from the Robinson-Gavilan fights, but I think it certainly is a reasonable conclusion.

 

No Paz isn't in RJJ's top 10 wins and you just linked me to a blog wrote by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about to prove your point

Jones top 10 wins imo

Toney
Hopkins
Tarver
Ruiz
Virgil Hill
Reggie Johnson
Harding
Woods
Gonzalez
Malinga

All those men achieved a great deal at the weight classes Jones beat them than Paz, Paz didn't, his Duran matches controversial.

Calzaghe doesn't have a better 2 wins than Jones, Jones beat prime

As for all the numbers of Robinson's wins, wonderful, but how good were most of his opponents? There were top fighters but allot of them weren't

Jones legacy suffered from the politics of making big fights and opponents really believed they couldn't beat him. In terms of undisputed/lineal you have Toney, Hopkins, Hill, Gonzalez then you have Jones unification at 175 after Darius didn't defend against the mandatories which unified 3 belts, he beat the Griffin and Tarver who'd win this

I really don't think he was that great. His best win is over a 144lb Robinson, having a 16lb advantage, a massive advantage. And he still lost 5 out of 6

Holman and Lytell were controversial wins. Holman was also in his 177th fight and 34yo at the end of his career. Lytell was near the beggining of his career as was Satterfield. Good performances but that has to be put in consideration.

Marshall beat him and considered the Murderer's Row fighters like Burley better than Lamotta. Lamotta ofcourse has other losses. His list of resume wins are good and he's one of the best of the era. I'm not sure that makes him great though

Yes both very good tough pressure guys, beating them past your prime makes it all the more tougher for Robinson. In terms of H2H MW list at MW how good are they? Not that high in my opinion

I agreem Galivan I consider the best P4P guy he beat, I can't knock the win. Although I'd consider Hopkins and Toney on par with that win

There's no balance, the manner in which the Hopkins win was wrote off is laughable

He wasn't considered elite until he beat Trinidad, it doesn't mean he didn't have that ability before that. He easily beat Mercado first time, watch the fight, he did look impressive

I'm not sure how legit the decisions were but he picked up losses and draws around that time, from my memory I haven't checked his record for a while

In what way was it 'a scrappy fight' You haven't seen it

 

I agree. Although I'd say he looked a notch above Hopkins in the actual fight, to his credit.

Yeah, whatever. I'm certainly not holding up Robinson's wins over Gavilan as anything holy or his stand-out win.
Robinson had loads of impressive wins. Knocking out Villemain counts for more than outpointing Gavilan, imo, for example.

 

I've seen it.
It's scrappy. There's a lot of prodding at thin air, each fighter 'landing' their jabs about 2 feet in front of the other guy's face, then when they get close enough to hit there's often a clinch or a hug.
Not particularly impressive from either fighter. i don't think it was a robbery that is being made out either.

Maybe you like the way they stand or their slick black heads, but I'm just a philistine that doesn't understand those things.

 

Yeah? Why? Was Villemain that good? (Don't know anything about him)

 

A question: If Jones had fought and convincingly beat the fighters he for whatever reason didn't fight during his prime (DM, Benn, Eubank, McClellan etc), would it have made his record comparable to SRR:s in your opinion?

 

Well, he had a close points win over Gavilan in 1950. Someone's bound to tell me it was a robbery, but the reports I've read suggest it was a close fight and not an unpopular decision.
He also had a win over reigning middleweight champion Jake LaMotta (in an over-the-limit bout) just after LaMotta beat Cerdan (around the time Cerdan was supposed to rematch LaMotta if he had lived), and he also was supposedly robbed in a match with LaMotta earlier than year (the crowd in MSG booed the decision).
He schooled a trial horse named Otis Graham around this time, a fighter Gavilan had struggled with around this time.

He contested the vacant middleweight championship according to Pennsylvania by losing a 15-rounder to Robinson, and was KO'd in 9 in the rematch.
It was the only time he was KO'd.

All things considered, that's a better win for Robinson than the points decisions over Gavilan, as far as I can tell.

Obviously Gavilan has unlimited "coolness" credit on this forum though, and I might be erring for not taken that into account. :good

 

I don't think he needed to fight those guys at 168 pounds. The timeline doesn't fit anyway.
Benn was finished after the McClellan fight, as was McClellan obviously. That fight happened just a few months after RJJ moved up and beat Toney, who was considered the best. If I remember rightly, Eubank lost to Steve Collins a month or two later.

Sugar Ray Robinson's resume was in a different league entirely though.
Just take a look. Start at the beginning and move down the list.

 

SRR was superior in every way and far superior in many ways

 

If Jones had beaten Jackson and Taylor at mw; Benn and likes at smw; dm at lhw and remained at he against the corpses of holy, Tyson, Toney and Byrd, id have no problem calling him the goat.

But he didn't.

As it is I consider him top 35 atg and the third most talented boxer in history.

 

This just isn't true. Defensively, he wasn't. Hand speed is very debatable.