Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

If Jones had totally cleaned house, I can see his record stacking up to Robinson's. Let's say he beats not only Hopkins and Toney, but also Eubank, Benn, McClellan and Nunn before 1995 when it would still matter some. Then beats Collins for good measure, before moving up to 175 and beating DM and everybody else there and capping it off with the wins over Ruiz and Tarver.

Then he would have wins over just about everyone that mattered from 160-175, among who two would go on and be recognised as ATGs, during almost a 15 year period. Plus Ruiz as an added bonus.

Since SRR came at least a half a dozen fighters short of beating everyone that mattered at 147-160 during the 1940's and early 1950's, plus ulitmately failing in beating Maxim, only those with serious bias towards fighters in black and white footage would then say Roy's record wasn't comparable. Of course...

But as it stands, Robinson clearly has the superior record.

No one we have film of have a clearly superior talent to Jones', though. If superior at all. That much should be clear by just watching the man in his prime.

 

It's not even debatable. Roy had greater handspeed.

Robinson was still a better fighter as I see it.

 

I agree. I just don't like seeing Roy dismissed as if every asset of his game and career were worse than Robinson's.

 

Of course it isn't. If Robinson wasn't a revered fighter in black and white it would be dismissed as trolling, as it should be.

 

Indeed. The thing about this comparison is that they're not even very similar in terms of style. Attributes, sure, but they approach fighting quite a bit differently. For instance, trying to say Robinson's defense was better is foolish, in part, because he wasn't a particularly defensive fighter. Certainly not to the extent that Jones was.

The whole "Robinson was better than everyone at everything" myth is counterproductive anyway. When people watch footage of him, they won't see that, so he won't live up to their literally impossible expectations, and that means they might miss exactly how freakishly good he was. They'll be comparing him to a non-existent, perfect fighter instead of comparing him to everyone else.

I rate him as the best I've ever seen, but it's not like there's no one else who isn't even close.

 

In terms of skills and abilities, I'd roughly break it down like this:

Fundamentals/technical skill: Robinson clearly

Speed (hands, feet and reflexes): Jones clearly

Power (p4p): About even.

Chin: Robinson

Will to win: Robinson is clearly more proven here, so he takes it.

Ring generalship: Close. Jones' most underrated quality. With the relative lack of film of Ray it's hard to tell, though.

Ability to land punches: Both were fantastic at this, but I think Jones has the edge here as well. Robinson set up his punches much better in the classical sense, but Jones' unique gifts made him able to land damaging punches from almost impossible angles and positions, even against truly elite defensive fighters. No other fighter in history can touch him in this regard.

Ability to avoid punches: RJJ clearly. His superior athletic ability outweighs Robinson's superior fundamentals by some distance here.

 

Power Puncher, here is my problem…

You want to slam Ray about his past prime losses like you said here

> Robinson won the MW title 5 times, how many times did he lose it though?

Yet you want to excuse Roy for his!

>Calzaghe doesn't have a better 2 wins than Jones, Jones beat prime

You want to run down Ray’s record which dwarfs Roy’s like you said here

> As for all the numbers of Robinson's wins, wonderful, but how good were most of his opponents? There were top fighters but allot of them weren't

Yet overlook that the same can be said of any other fighter’s record including Roy’s early fights

ricky randell 6 17
stephen johnson 27 9
ron amundsen 22 13
david mcclusky 22 73
joe eddens 12 12
billy mitchum 7 17
knox brown 38 23
ron johnson 27 18
tony waddells 0 4
rollin williams 23 16
reggie miller 27 18
richie stackhouse 24 17
eddie evans 10 7
kevin daigle 15 10
lester yarborough 13 50
273 304
Roy only has 56 wins – so mathematically what % of them are lower class?
A lot…

When I pointed out the fact that Vinnie Paz – while a great lightweight is not a stellar win at Light heavy yet he is one of Roy’s top and you dissed me and said

>The fact you think Paz is 1 of his best wins, shows you really didn't follow boxing closely during the period

When I pointed out that info came from a source written May 30, 2011 and cited it you said

>No Paz isn't in RJJ's top 10 wins and you just linked me to a blog wrote by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about to prove your point

Now did you know that “Blog Guy” based his picks off of info he got from reading another article written May 22, 2010?

And so it seems the guy you said didn’t follow boxing closely during this period and doesn’t know what he is talking about is……

Wait for it….

ROY JONES!

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/22/exclusive-roy-jones-lists-his-top-10-most-rewarding-victories/

 

Good post.

Trying to make fighters into this mythical, perfect specimens can really hurt people's appreciation of them.

 

Villemain was rated from September 1947 to February 1953, peaking out as #2. His tenure as a world level contender and the names on his record would suggest he was really one of the best middleweight contenders of the time. Not really that far at all from being equal or superior wins to 'HOFers' Graziano or Turpin.

I always include him in the list of the various guys Robinson stopped at 160 to illustrate he actually carried a bigger punch when he moved up than he did as a Welterweight.

You say "points win over Gavilan" as if there was any other possible way to achieve a victory over him (even if a lot of 'points wins' were bull****). Note the custom title my friend and discover the reality that the man couldn't possibly be stopped in a boxing match, particularly at 147. :yep

Really though, there's plenty available on him and it's easy to see why even PowerPuncher doesn't dispute it: Cream of the crop athleticism, skills, ability -- could give SRR/SRL a run for their money in speed, great movement, awkward angles, varied punch selection, could switch gears at the drop of a dime and maintain a frenzied work rate, indomitable chin. He had a penchant for really showing up with his A+ game when the stakes were highest (and rather nonchalant when they weren't). He was Robinson's immediate successor to the Welter Crown which always looks good and actually had a higher quality title reign imo -- I'd consider Basilio, Graham, Turner, Bratton better than anyone Robinson defended the title against other than Gavilan himself. He was basically unbeatable at his peak from late '50 to '54 over a 38-bout streak, picked up high quality scalps at both 147 and 160 along the way, defended his title 7 times up to the Saxton debacle, and always against the top contenders in the division. There were zero 'throwaway' title defenses.

 

I've posted this numerous times already, but what the hell..

Here's the list of fighters Robinson fought who were rated by RING Magazine at one point or another. In Bold are those rated at the time he fought them, Italics on IBHOF/WBHOFs, From Henry Hascup.

Boxer Weight 1st-Rated Last-Rated Months-Rated Best-Rating
Abrams, Georgie 160 1938/08 1947/10 055 01*
Angott, Sammy 135-147 1938/07 1946/04 081 00
Archer, Joey 160 1963/03 1967/05 051 01*
Armstrong, Henry 126-147 1935/01 1945/06 123 00
Barnes, Ray 160 1950/08 1953/02 018 04*
Basilio, Carmen 147-160 1953/06 1962/02 087 00
Basora, Jose 160 1942/09 1949/08 048 02*
Bell, O'Neill 160 1948/01 1948/05 002 07*
Bell, Tommy 147 1944/01 1949/02 051 01*
Belloise, Steve 147-160 1940/06 1950/06 096 01*
Berger, Maxie 135-147 1938/05 1944/02 033 05*
Burns, Charley 135 1935/07 1935/11 005 05*
Castellani, Rocky 160 1949/02 1957/02 059 01*
Castiglione, Nick 135 1941/11 1943/02 005 08*
Costner, George 147 1945/11 1951/02 032 01*
Curcio, Joe 147 1946/09 1946/09 001 10*
Delannoit, Cyrille 160 1948/08 1949/06 011 02*
Dellicurti, Vic 147-160 1939/12 1945/09 022 06*
Docusen, Bernard 135-147 1945/07 1950/10 050 01*
Downes, Terry 160-175 1960/09 1966/03 052 00
Doyle, Jimmy 147 1945/06 1947/08 019 02*
Dupas, Ralph 135-147 1953/09 1965/03 136 01*
Dykes, Bobby 147-160 1949/10 1956/02 033 01*
Fullmer, Gene 160 1955/08 1964/07 107 00
Fusari, Charley 147 1946/11 1952/03 049 02*
Gavilan, Kid 147-160 1948/01 1958/09 106 00
Ghnouly, Joe 130-135 1931/11 1936/04 031 05*
Giardello, Joey 160-175 1952/10 1968/03 152 00
Graziano, Rocky 147-160 1944/09 1952/10 083 00
Guggino, Carl "Red" 135 1937/02 1938/03 006 06*
Harrington, Stan 147-160 1963/09 1967/06 035 02*
Harris, Ossie 160 1945/09 1945/10 002 10*
Hecht, Gerhard 175 1953/03 1958/03 061 01*
Hernandez, Art 160 1965/11 1966/03 002 10*
Hernandez, Ferd 160 1966/12 1968/10 023 02*
Hudson, Cecil 147-160 1943/02 1947/12 006 02*
Jannazzo, Izzy 147-160 1935/03 1944/08 066 01*
Jones, Ralph Tiger 160 1953/02 1960/08 047 03*
LaMotta, Jake 160-175 1942/07 1953/02 121 00
Leahy, Mick 160 1965/01 1965/03 003 10*
Lee, Don 160 1984/04 1986/12 032 04*
Lello, Pete 135 1939/02 1941/04 016 03*
Levine, Artie 160-175 1946/05 1949/04 012 06*
Martin, Georgie 147 1941/01 1944/02 006 10*
Maxim, Joey* 175-200+ 1941/02 1956/09 148* 00
McDaniels, Jimmy 147 1943/06 1945/08 019 03*
Mims, Holley 160 1952/02 1960/06 057 02*
Motisi, Tony 147 1942/05 194304 009 06*
Moyer, Denny 147-160 1959/04 1972/06 099 01*
Nettlow, Al 135-147 1939/04 1943/02 006 08*
Olson, Carl Bobo 160-175 1949/08 1967/05 139 00
Pender, Paul 160 1959/06 1964/02 050 00
Quarles, Norment 135 1937/01 1939/02 012 08*
Rangel, Sheik 147 1943/02 1944/02 009 05*
Rindone, Joe 160-175 1951/06 1954/02 004 07*
Rubio, Norman 147 1941/09 1944/02 010 09*
Secreet, Sammy 147 1942/01 1946/08 006 06*
Servo, Marty 147 1942/02 1947/02 022 00
Shapiro, Maxie 126-135 1940/07 1945/02 018 03*
Stretz, Hans 160-175 1954/02 1958/02 019 02*
Taylor, Chuck 147 1946/06 1946/11 004 07*
Turner, Earl 147 1942/11 1948/09 011 04*
Turpin, Randy 160-175 1950/03 1958/02 065 00
Tygh, Jimmy 135 1939/02 1940/09 002 09*
Villemain, Robert 147-175 1947/09 1953/02 046 02*
Wade, Aaron Tiger 160 1945/12 1946/02 003 07*
Wallace, Frankie 126-135 1932/01 1938/02 020 02*
Wilson, Jackie (L.A.) 135-147 1940/01 1947/04 032 02*
Zannelli, Ralph 147-160 1938/02 1953/02 018 03*
Zengaras, George 135 1937/09 1939/11 007 08*
Zivic, Fritzie 147 1936/08 1945/08 095 00


Even if all of them were total **** (which they obviously aren't), Robinson would rate higher than Jones on resume and achievement simply for what he did within the confines of his own time.

 

Robinson's record is truly amazing. Think he has the record in number of contenders beat. Ali and Louis aren't that terribly far behind, though.

Anyone know how many rated contenders Jones beat?

 

Pretty sure Armstrong actually beat more rated contenders than Robinson, and in a much shorter amount of time. The Man was RELENTLESS.

 

Bok, I honestly think you had a better argument going with SRL as the subject against Robinson than with Roy Jones, Jr. He was definitely on Roy Jones Jr level as a fighter, and has a better record too. Top 2 wins? How about four or five.

 

this actually shows the limitations of comparing resumes across eras. Robinson has more wins over contenders than Roy has fights. By a not insignificant factor.

 

Very good effort on Robinson's career here:

http://www.****************/boxing-history/11650-sugar-ray-robinson-greatest-all-time.html

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