Rocky Marciano (1952) vs Muhammad Ali (1975)

If Ali battered Rocky over 14 rounds like he did Frazier I suggest Rocky wont be throwing 100 punches in the last round. Ali is a bit more durable than Charles and even when he was down late in FOTC from a murderous shot he got back and not only survived but was fighting back

 

My point is that especially the first fight with Charles was close. So if Marciano had trouble with that version of Charles etc, etc.

'Cause I think Ali of '75 was substantially better than the Charles that met Marciano in the first fight (and even more so in the second of course). Ali had recently stopped Lyle and Foreman, Charles was 2-2 going in to the first Marciano fight and had mostly losses afterwards.

Ali was much faster than that version of Louis. Had much better stamina and punch resistance as well.

You could be right about Ali not being able to win this way, though. Personally, I'm not so sure. Brawling with a skilled guy with much faster hands while giving away about 50 lbs is not easy by any means. And Ali would explot the size difference - he would hold, grab and lean on Rocky. He would push him away to get punching room and would unload perhaps the hardest punches Rocky had been hit with.

 

Ali didn't employ the rope-a-dope in Manilla. Futch himself said Ali fought very smart in that fight and I agree. I think it was one of his smartest tactics wise.

 

Much how i see it

Ali at this stage suffers by being compared to how he was. People tend to overlook how he reinvented himself and used attributes he never had to in his younger years.
Ali in 75 was still a very good h2h fighter. You dont beat ATGs in Frazier and Foreman by being slow, inactive and featherfisted

 

It's kind of funny that a guy that stops Foreman, Lyle and Frazier wthin 12 months seems to be treated as almost washed-up by some. And you always hear "the rope-a-dope wouldn't work", like that was all that Ali had left at that stage. It didn't work against Lyle, so Ali changed tactics, saw his vulnerability to rights and stopped him.

 

Yeah exactly, the rope-a-dope is a myth. Ali never let guys just wail away and punch themselves out. More often than not he won the exchanges on the ropes by using superior handspeed and head movement. The reflexes were still ther he just was more subtle with his movements. Foreman, Frazier, Shavers and Lyle repeatedly were just missing due to a head roll or a slight twist of the head.
His strength in clinches is under rated and as you stated earlier he pushed much bigger and supposedly stronger opponents around the ring.

 

What exactly suggests Frazier was badly faded? That he tok part in one of the most high paced HW fights ever, held in sweltering heat? That he hadn't come close to losing since Foreman? That he had walked right through a Quarry coming off the best streak in his career?

The myth that Frazier was badly faded is one of the most stupid on this forum IMO.

 

He had tremendous stamina, far better than Walcott who after the first two rounds had to fight in spurts .. he had much better power. He threw far more punches on a consistent basis and he took a much better punch. Their skill sets were different but I would not say Walcott was better at all.

 

He wasn't flabby. He was against Foreman, but not here. Frazier was never "cut" so to speak. He looked in fine shape in Manilla. A bit looser than in his 20's, but that's only to be expected.

And I don't agree his speed and reflexes was sharply diminished. They weren't quite the same, but the difference wasn't that sharp. He also had evolved a bit tecnically, I'd say, which he showed in his rematch against Quarry. A perfomance that was noticeable better than his first one.

I ask again; how could a badly depleted Frazier still look so good against a top contender like Quarry? If his reflexes was that bad, how come one of the sharpest counter punchers around couldn't take the least advantage of it?

The answer is that the rumour of Frazier's great decline is very exaggerrated.

 

Frazier never had a cut build .. he also never had a heavily muscled upper body. He was all legs and trunk strength ... he was simply built that way ... obviously it did not reflect on conditioning as he went a brutal 14 rounds in exceptional heat AND HUMIDITY ... he was fresher than Ali. The bout was stopped because he could not see ... I would take the Frazier of Manila to crush the Walcott of the first Marciano bout ... he would wear him down and stop him ...