Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Omega74, Jul 20, 2021.
I stand corrected.
If that's true then it's at odds with every contemporary account of the fight. Even the referee, whose eventual scorecard strongly favoured Moore, had Valdes winning four of the first seven rounds.
It’s all on page 97 of “Peter Wilson more Ringside seats” 1959
It doesn't matter what page it's on. As I said, it's flat-out contradicted by multiple ringside reports. This is why it's a mistake to put too much faith in accounts written years after the event.
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these reports also said Moore used the sun to his advantage, that the 13th and 14th were big rounds for him that he closed Ninos eye in the 13th which were all recorded
Identically in Wilson’s recollection. How is that a flat out contradiction? It was a tough. One report even had Valdes winning the middle rounds just like Wilson.
Seems close rounds were open to differing interpretations.
The reports that had it even after 14 chose moore taking the last round whereas Wilson felt nino won the last round.
I don’t see a big contradiction with Wilson. Tell me, what did he miss?
Body shots don't look that devastating, but they do massive internal damage. Bugner said he had to go in a tub of ice to deal with the bruising. I'll take his word over yours.
I mean, you aren't the most objective person in this thread and you obviously have a narrative you want to stick with by ignoring the statements of fighters when it's convenient.
Bugner was hit harder by a better fighter when he lost to Frazier.
I am sure he was injured against Lyle, perhaps he did feel worse after it, But Bugner still deserved to win that fight. This was not the case against Frazier. The commentary felt Bugner deserved to win against Ron. It was a split decision that could have went either way. It was a defensive bout, quite boring and not brutal in any way.
“In a televised twelve rounder between two top ten contenders, veteran Ron Lyle battled British and European Heavyweight Champion Joe Bugner in a boring, drawish fight. It was a highly defensive matchup. Lyle and Bugner fought cautiously, with Lyle perhaps being abit more aggressive. No heads turned in the division in a twelve round split decision which could virtually have gone either way, and did not affect the heavyweight rankings in any way.
Las Vegas SUN - 55-55 Draw
LAS VEGAS, Nev., March 20 (AP)—Ron Lyle bloodied Joe Bugner's nose with a right‐hand punch in the 10th round today and defeated the Briton on a split decision in their 12‐round heavyweight boxing match.
Lyle, the underdog, was behind on points midway through the fight but rallied in the later rounds. Among the judges, Harold Buck scored the bout
for Lyle, 56 points to 54, and Art Lurie for Bugner, 55‐54. Hal Miller cast the deciding vote for Lyle, 57‐52.
Bugner was able to score easily in the first nine rounds with his flicking • left jab, but apparently did little damage. Although Lyle appeared tired in the sixth, seventh and eighth rounds, Bugner was unable to knock him down.
In the fifth, Lyle was momentarily stunned at the bell when Bugner got in two quick rights. For a moment after the bell rang. Lyle appeared unaware of where his corner was.
• But after Bugner began bleeding in the 10th, Lyle seemed to come alive. ‘ Using fierce rights to the body and left luppercuts to the head along the ropes, Lyle tired his opponent, and Bugner began holding. In the 11th, the right hurt Bugner and again he tried to tie Lyle up on the ropes.
, It was a disappointing turn of events for Bugner, who had hoped a convincing victory would gain him a title match with Muhammad AIL Bugner, eight years younger than the 35‐yeart•Id Lyle, outweighed his opponent, 229 pounds to 218. -New York Times.
Zab Judah said his fight with Micky ward was the most painful because of the body shots even though he won.
I'll accept the words of actual boxers over a troll with an agenda.
I reject the troll accusation.
I am merely building a case to support the true status of Ron Lyle as that of a respected contender rather than a would be ATG in an alternative era.
Do Trolls usually quote from New York Times?
Firstly it's good to see you punching a few posts out as you really shouldn't keep all those gifts inside! I do understand why you shy away a bit however without having to expand.
I brought Moore into the thread more than anyone as a retort against choklabs rather indigenous posts per the 38yo Peralta. Sometimes you have to get down in the mud and get dirty with them, or you just want to. The whole Moore introduction has obviously grown quite a bit from there.
You'll notice i didn't out and out pick Lyle over Moore but i refuse to count him out either. I also didn't pick Lyle to actually beat Marciano. I'm not convinced he would but i still see it as a somewhat open affair. Of course Moore - Lyle is an entirely different fight to Marciano as even if Moore took him on inside it would include a helluva lot of guile and finessing than we would see from The Rock.
Both fights would be interesting affairs. As I've said i'm not quite as big as some on Ron.
Trolls say things like "Leon Spinks dominated his era" knowing that the statement is bogus to push an agenda.
Never said Lyle is a would be ATG in another era. There is nothing blasphemous in a boxer claiming that a good contender hurt him more than an ATG.
whereas I said Leon ruled the division. Because for a short time, around the time Lyle was a leading contender, Leon was ruling over the division until he lost the rematch with Ali. Never used the word dominant.
ruling is not dominating. Never said Leon was dominant.
you are correct there is nothing blasphemous in a boxer saying he was hurt more in a fight with a good contender. But it is different to supporting the view that Bugners “most brutal and gruelling fight was against Ron Lyle” because regardless of how hurt he says he was, It was absolutely not a gruelling or brutal fight!
Bugner was hit harder by better fighters. No report says his fight with Lyle was a brutal fight and nor does a viewing of the Lyle Bugner fight show that it was.
In an albeit off night Bugner lost more clearly to Jack Bodel than he ever did against Ron Lyle where one judge and the TV commentary thought Bugner won against Lyle! Nobody thought Bugner won against Bodel.
Bugner also dropped a split decision to Lyle one Sunday at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas in 1977.
Bugner was just 27 that afternoon and he had not been a child in the heavyweight division for a long, long time. The fight was live on ITV at 10pm that Sunday night and it was gruelling, Bugner was criticised again for his performance, his nemesis
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called for him to quit or “have a go”. However, Bugner’s battered body told an alternative story from the twelve-round fight.
“It took me six months to recover from the Lyle fight,” Bugner told me in 2008.
“I ended up in hospital in an ice-tank to ease the internal bleeding.” If you look up Lyle on YouTube you might want to watch his fights with Shavers and Foreman through your fingers, they are hard, resembling the edited bits from a Rocky movie, the bits that were too unbelievable even for a Rocky fight sequence.
Moore should absolutely be favored over Lyle.
You want size:
A genuinely past prime Moore stopped 6'4" 211 lb Lavorante and put him out on a stretcher. Lav had been recently rated with knockouts over Foley and Besmanoff, with a disputed loss to a hometown favorite he reportedly beat and cut up. Lavorante was younger than Lyle and genuine up and coming contender that may have been ruined by Moore.
Moore also stopped 6'2 209 lb Bob Baker who was around the level of Valdes, in fact he actually beat Nino twice. So not sure why this is just focusing on how convincing Moore was against Valdes in his second win over him. Moore was coming off one of the longest lay offs of his career for Valdes 2, you don't think that accounts for his performance not being as dominate?
Meanwhile, Lyle lost to every good technician he faced. Twice to Young, Quarry, and a very past prime Ali. And as mentioned he didn't exactly walk through a very cagey 38 year old Argentine gatekeeper. Where is the performance that makes you feel Lyle can handle a great technician or are you just putting the burden of proof on Moore?
Who in this case already shown multiple times he could outclass world class contenders of Lyle size.
You think Quarry could out box guys Moore couldn't? Why? Because Quarry had a few extra soft pounds on his belly? Moore actually has a significant reach advantage over Quarry and actually has as a near equal reach to Lyle in their most common tale of the tape listings of 75" and 76". Moore clearly had a giant reach for his height, listed as high as 78", he would not even have to fight Lyle on the inside as Quarry did.
Yes that’s written by Steve Bunce. It is not a description of the action is it? He used the word gruelling I’ll give you that... though it never comes across on the tape or in an actual report of the fight that it was brutal or punishing to watch.
Boxing outdoors in Vegas is hot. It is gruelling boxing in heat. But in no way is this conformation that this was this the most brutal or most gruelling fight of Bugners career!
Like I said, Bugner was injured, but the fight was not a brutal beating. It was a close split decision. Bugner won on one scorecard.
He lost more clearly to Jack Bodel.