Rocky Marciano '53 vs. Ron Lyle '75

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Omega74, Jul 20, 2021.

Who wins?

  1. Marciano by KO

    31 vote(s)
    56.4%
  2. Lyle by KO

    21 vote(s)
    38.2%
  3. Marciano by UD

    2 vote(s)
    3.6%
  4. Lyle by UD

    1 vote(s)
    1.8%
  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Tough fight but little doubt Lyle was the deserved victor.

    Peralta was of course a completely different fighter to Marciano who would have little to no bearing on how that match would go no matter who one favors.
     
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  2. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Either I'm not explaining things well enough or your comprehension is off.

    I never said Lyle didn't get tired in some fights. Not once. What I said was that in spite of being tired, he continued to throw hard punches with a high work rate/output even in the later rounds.

    This is undeniable.

    I posted the Ledoux fight. In the very final round he and Ledoux continued slugging it out to give the fans their money's worth--despite being tired. It's on film in this very thread.

    He continued throwing bombs at Joe Bugner up until the final bell. Bugner was so physically bruised and battered that he needed to have his whole body put on ice. It left such an impression on Bugner he named Lyle as perhaps the 2nd hardest puncher he faced.

    I posted the reports on the Bonavena fight. Lyle continued slugging it out up until the final bell, and here's the key part: despite being tired. The reports say both men never let up and kept throwing hard shots.

    Ali and Young did not fight remotely similar to Rocky and I have thoroughly explained why those fights are irrelevant in the context of this thread. And in neither of those fights did Lyle gas or lose due to stamina issues, he lost because they were better technicians and outsmarted him. Actually, Lyle was winning the Ali fight and paced himself well but got caught by a nasty combination he didn't see coming and got stopped. Had nothing. Whatsoever to do with stamina issues.

    Shavers...did you really bring this up as an example? He knocked him out. And before you go on an irrelevant tangent about his condition during that fight, here's a newsflash: when two big hard punchers stand in front of each other and slug it out, they get tired. I know this must be a shocker for you because Rocky never had to do that in his entire career!

    There are multiple examples of him continuing to punch hard in the later rounds. There are multiple examples of him continuing to throw hard shots despite being tired.

    There are ZERO examples of him just laying there gassed with a low punch output and just coasting to the final bell. There are ZERO examples of him losing fights due to poor stamina.

    Therefore the only logical conclusion is that your claim that he had stamina issues is dubious at best and way off base at worst. If you claim a Fighter's weakness was stamina there should be MULTIPLE examples of stamina issues costing them a fight. Bringing up fights that they WON despite being tired is disingenuous, especially since he continued throwing bombs up until the last round.

     
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  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not to mention being a prime fighter with little wear and tear+a few flagrant fouls here and there.

    As for the 2nd part, I'm guessing you're unaware that Rocky fans do not consider a 25 pound weight difference to be an issue even if the opponent will be standing their ground and fighting an aggressive fight with strength and heart. It's ok for Rocky to win fights based on sheer grit and raw power, but no matter how big or skilled the opponent, they can't win with those x factors because the rules change for Rocky when the shoes on the other foot.
     
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  4. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You’re confusing heart with affective stamina. The fact that he can throw punches in the late rounds means nothing if they’re non affective and less often. What I’m trying to convey to you is that him just being TIRED will land him in a boat load of trouble against Marciano. Getting tired against Shavers isn’t a big deal because Shavers doesn’t have Marcianos skill set. If he won the other fights or not has zero to do with the argument. Him just being tired and less affective later rounds will be a detriment to him. You can’t say he doesn’t get tired because he obviously does. I certainly think getting tired cost him against Ali. He was exhausted against Quarry. Clinching every chance he got the last couple of rounds. I’ve named a bunch of fights that you even agree he tires so it’s very confusing as to why you’re even arguing this. You’re point that you think Lyle wouldn’t tire against Marciano when he literally tired against everyone late rounds ahead or not doesnt compute but maybe that’s the point you’re trying to make. Not sure at this point.
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Regardless of difference in style, would a 38 year old Peralta prove as much of an obstacle for Marciano?

    Whatever way you dress it, Peralta at 38, shouldn’t have been so competitive for the elite of the division.

    38 is the age Lyle was when Cooney beat him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  6. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No I'm not confusing heart with stamina.

    I NEVER SAID HE DOESN'T GET TIRED, YOU'RE ARGUING AGAINST POINTS I NEVER MADE.

    DID ROCKY GET ON HIS TOES AND DANCE LIKE ALI? DID HE USE SLIPPERY HERKY JERKY MOVEMENTS AND CAGEY DEFENSE WITH A LOW OUTPUT LIKE JIMMY YOUNG? IF NOT, HOW ON EARTH ARE THOSE FIGHTS RELEVANT TO ROCKY?

    A fighter with poor stamina cannot continue to throw hard punches in a 12 round fight. This is not even up for debate. Do you want to make a poll? Can you name a single boxer in history who had poor stamina yet they continued throwing bombs in the 12th round at a high pace?
     
  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A 37 year old 1 armed Louis did!

    A heavily shopworn 38 hear old Walcott did!

    75% of Rocky's best wins were against older opponents similar in age to Peralta!

    And Peralta fought nothing like Rocky, but by all means continue to use any smaller fighter as a means to support your flawed comparisons. It's all you've done for 10+ years.
     
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  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    How many contenders had Peralta beaten at 38 though?

    crucially Marcianos old opponents were still doing it at a much higher echelon. It’s factual and proven they were beating men who could be favoured to stop or beat a 38 year old Peralta.

    Louis was beating Savold, Brion and Bivins.

    At 38 Walcott was beating Ezzard Charles for the title. It is so different.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  9. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Rocky’s defense was stellar which means he would make Lyle miss. And like I said about five times it doesn’t matter what style Lyle is against he gets tired. And where are these late rounds KOs for Lyle if he’s throwing so hard? He obviously does not throw hard late. Nor does he throw a lot late. It’s clear on video. Not sure what fights you’re watching. You’re obviously confusing heart with stamina. You can be digging deep and throwing it doesn’t mean they’re affective. I don’t think we will find common ground on this. Going around in circles at this point. To harp on one area so long when Marciano would beat him in several is redundant.
     
  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I have no idea. Given Lyle in reality beat him twice he didn't do too bad. Peralta drew Bonavena at 34 and went the distance with Foreman despite getting soundly outpointed.

    Given the AP scored it comfortably for Lyle as well as the Frankfurt news report criticism of the decision would you, if you were actually honest and not plucking a terrible draw verdict out of boxrec to support your choice, say that you were being fair and reasonable when labeling Peralta as being "so competitive"?

    I think your wordplay has failed you miserably again to put it nicely, to be not so nice some might even think you were being purposely deceitful.

    If i was to retort then what the hell was a 38yo Archie Moore, a guy who made light heavyweight just 3 months prior!!!! doing putting world champ Marciano on the seat of his pants??????????

    Can you imagine a light heavyweight, even a great one, putting Holmes on the seat of his pants? Or Ali? Or Tyson?
     
  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Certainly not Lyle ;)
     
  12. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Odd some people think being knocked down by Archie Moore an arguably top ten p4p individual with a hw record of like 64-4 is a negative. Then bring up if Ali was knocked down by a LHW. Same ATG who was knocked down by a 185 pound guy who wasn’t an all time great. Or Tyson who was knocked out by a blown up cruiser. Or Holmes who was beat by a LHW. Odd arguments on this forum lately.
     
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  13. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Peralta was a tricky man of huge experience. The way the reports describe it, Lyle's victory over Peralta is no worse than Foreman's first win over Peralta. Btw, Lyle did beat Peralta. They fought twice.
     
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  14. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You are right that Rocky had better defense.
     
  15. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The dynamic duo!! So fitting.

    Moore 3 months prior fought as a light heavyweight and he did two fights prior to that and three fights prior to that again. His heavyweight record is irrelevant. The guy was still making light heavyweight quite comfortably because if he wasn't he wouldn't be beating the likes of your destroyer Joey Maxim and Johnson. He was a padded up light heavyweight.

    As any sane boxing fan worth their weight in salt would know Holyfield bulked up extremely scientifically and quite likely with the aid of steroids and stayed there. Moore most certainly didn't. The division was so poor and undersized at the time he didn't need to as he could readily compete popping up and down from 175.

    The classic catch 22 you fell into is that Marciano was actually a cruiserweight by Holyfields 190 pound divisional standards and was not even a "blown up" one as Holyfield, in your words, was to become.

    Please tell me you think Moore could pop straight up from 175 and knock Holmes or Tyson or Ali down.

    As for Holmes getting beaten by Spinks - Holmes had been struggling for quite some time and was getting progressively over the hill with each fight. Even so he didn't come close to getting knocked off his feet by one of the biggest punching 175's in history.