Rocky Marciano has a very good case for #1...

This is incorrect. Joe Louis was the # 1 rated heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine when rocky fought him. Louis was 6'2 214lb

 

So getting floored for off balance FLASH knockdowns just 2 times in 49 pro fights by the Ring Magazine # 4 and # 66 greatest punchers of all time shows vunerability???

 

He had problems with his back his whole career. But in this fight he pulled it bad when he missed with a hook in th 5:th (I think it was). This is what he himself says about in "King of the world". He wasn't bothered by it to begin with.

Actually, Dundee thinks it was Ali's stiff, persistent jab that caused it. I don't know how he figures, but he said it used to happen to Ali's sparring partners.

 

To be fair to both men, Ali did better as a young fighter in his early twenties because he started in his teens and fought to 25 without break. Marciano started fighting at 24 after serving 4 years in the military during WWII. Ali later had to overcome a 3 1/2 year layoff. Marciano had to overcome a very late start.

Because he got off to such a late start and had such a truncated amateur career, Marciano had to learn basics as a professional. As an Olympic champion, Ali was much better grounded.

 

May be the case, but did he KO Louis? Or even beat him? Arguably, yeah, but Schmeling left no doubt, and he fought a Louis closer to his prime. Even if I were to rate Walcott over Schmeling (and for me they're close, based on resume and head to head, both top 15, as close as one spot away from each other) I think that the Schmeling that fought Louis was closer to his prime than the Walcott that fought Marciano. I would also dispute that Walcott had a better chin.

 

For the last time VINGO WEIGHED 189 to MARCIANO@S 180 1/4.Look for yourself on www.boxrec.com.search.And for Christ sake don't keep repeating yourself.Scores for the first Lastarza /Marciano fight
Referee Jack Watson 9-6 Marciano,Judge Arthur Shwartz 5-4 Marciano.judge Artie Aidala 4-5 in favour of Lastarza.Lastarza was down for a count of 4 in the 7th round .A point to remember ,Marciano had a point deducted in the 8th for a low blow.

 

1. "Marciano never even fought someone as good as Schmeling was on the night he beat Louis"
This is a circular argument that I do not find persuasive. In comparing fighters such as Louis, Marciano, and Ali, I would stick only to what their opposition did against other fighters. Otherwise you are giving Louis extra credit for losing to Schmeling. If Schmeling had never fought Louis and Walcott had never fought Marciano, I think few would consider Schmeling equal to Walcott. Walcott would still have his great effort against Louis, his ko of Charles, his ko of Johnson, and his wins over Elmer Ray. Schmeling? His win over Sharkey was on a foul in a fight in which he was trailing. Mickey Walker was small and aging. He was slaughtered in his prime by Baer. The evidence is certainly pretty scanty that he constituted "ATG opposition".
2. Beating more fighters in general. Well, according to the stats on such things kept by the Boxing Register, Emile Griffith had 36 victories over rated fighters. In contrast, Sugar Ray Leonard went 17-3-1 against rated opponents. Carlos Monzon went 15-0-0. Marvin Hagler went 14-2-1. So Griffith beat as many rated opponents as any two of the others combined. Do you therefore judge Griffith as clearly better than Leonard, Monzon, and Hagler?
Among lightheavies, Moore had 44 victories over rated fighters. Charles had 40. In contrast, Michael Spinks went 13-1 against rated opponents and Bob Foster went 13-6-1. Do you therefore conclude that Moore and Charles are clearly so much better than Spinks and Foster that there is nothing to debate. Even Joey Maxim had 22 wins over rated opponents.
Defeating scads of rated fighters is certainly one mark of greatness and I can't imagine a mediocre fighter doing it, but the Maxim example should give you some pause. I do know that defeating 30 or more rated fighters has been accomplished far more often than having at least 10 fights against rated opponents and sweeping them. Only Monzon, Marciano, and Salvador Sanchez fought as many as ten rated opponents and swept them.

 

Foreman allways got owned by slick boxers? Like Gregorio Peralta? Ali had trouble with swarmers? One beat him once ,Ali was nearly 36 when he beat Shavers by U DEC.

 

1. "I don't rate Marciano highly because I don't care about him being undefeated" nor knocking out every rated or ever rated fighter he fought, nor sweeping his Hall-of-Famers, and of course, champions, nor ko'ing the longest reigning heavyweight and lightheavyweight champions of the 20th century. Marciano's top four opponents, reigned 25 years as champions and in championship fights not against Marciano or each other went 40-1 with 32 knockouts.

2. "Louis and Ali both beat better fighters and in more impressive fashion." Nonsense. Ali lost five times and had several controversial decisions against the likes of Norton, Young, and Jones, after which he did not clear the air by cleanly winning a rematch. Louis was more dominant, but also lost three times, being stopped twice and knocked down 10 times, and had more close decisions than Marciano. Marciano had close fights with LaStarza and Lowry, but defeated both cleanly in rematches. I consider a knockout about as impressive as a victory can get as it leaves no doubt as to who was better and Marciano knocked out all his top and even second-tier opponents.

 

good point. sometimes I chuckle how wise you are.

 

Schmeling would still have wins against Stribling, Uzcudun, Hamas and his robbery against Sharkey in their second bout. I certainly wouldn't place them all that far apart even if you took away their fights with Louis and Marciano. As is, though, Schmeling proved how good he was like he never was able in any of his other fights against Louis, I see no reason to disregard that fight.

Ali and Louis both beat more good/great fighters than Marciano did and often in more impressive fashion. So Marciano swept 10 fighters rated at the time? I don't care. Ali beat three fighters in my personal top 10 all time heavyweight list and more good/excellent opposition over the course of his career than Marciano did. He also did a lot of that when he was past his best. Louis likewise beat more, better fighters than Marciano did. Not only that, but I feel they would both beat Marciano in a head to head match up.

 

On the other hand, if Ali had not laid off, he probably would have fought his trilogy against Frazier between 1969 and 1971 or 1972 or so. If he had fought Frazier at that point, it is also conceivable that Frazier might have edged two of three. I think Joe went back faster than Ali. Swarmers tend to age faster. Fighting at advanced ages might have been to Ali's benefit more than Frazier's.

 

Nice try, but my kids are getting my money when I kick off. Keep trying, though.

 

Those are all the reasons he's in my top 10.

Ali lost 5 times all when he was past his prime after 3 1/2 year lay off from boxing. All of Ali's wonky decisions came when he was shot or close to it, as were three of his losses. His other two losses still came when he was past his prime. Who did Marciano fight past his prime? Prime Joe Frazier? No, 42 year old Archie Moore. Louis lost once to an ATG in Schmeling, when he himself was still green. Schmeling executed a perfect gameplan and put on probably the best performance of his life. I still think Schmeling of that night was better than anyone Marciano fought in his entire career. Louis other two losses came when he was in his mid 30's after a two year lay-off, they have no bearing on his legacy. And yeah, he was KD'd more than Marciano, but he proved he could stand up to punchers like the Baer brothers and Galento without getting KO'd. I'm not arguing that Marciano shouldn't be a top 3-10 heavyweight, but I find it laughable placing him above Louis or Ali.

 

Though not addressed to me, that line made me smile.