Rocky Marciano has a very good case for #1...

The only reason Larry said that was because he had a short people phobia...Nick Wells who Ko'd him 2 times in the finals for the NATIONALS and he was about 5"10 and Tyson was another 5"10 1/2 dude that smoked Larry.....so I guess they couldn't carry his Jock strap but they knew how to KNOCK a sucker out...Thats where Larrys short phobia comes from, from those short rights hands from Shorty's

 

You seem to believe fans are gullible Pavlov dogs and journalists manipulative mercenaries, while holding your own viewpoint in towering regard.

The early-career Clay decision victory over Sabedong has nothing to do with Marciano's being pushed near the limit by a 37-year-old champion who had retired 6 times before winning the crown he was defending against his odds-on favorite challenger.

A result reveals much if it is studied in context: in his signature fights, Marciano struggled too much in the way of trailing on points, cuts and even early knockdowns, against older fighters.

The greatest heavyweight champion of all time must display a dominance, in context, that puts him head-and-shoulders above his opposition.

Glorification begins when a guy has life and death, tooth and nail, against, in the context of heavyweight history, relatively small (LaStarza), old (Louis) and weak (Cockell) opposition, scoring spectacular nail-biting, come-from-behind, edge-of-your-seat victories, and then seen as being able to do the same against much, much better foes in fantasy fights.

The key part of Rocky's career:
No. 25: Carmine Vingo. 16-1. 189 lbs. KO 6
No. 26: Roland LaStarza. 37-0. 187 lbs. SD 10
No. 27: Eldrige Eatman. 15-19-3. 206 lbs. TKO 3
No. 28: Gino Buonvino. 22-11-7. 199 lbs. TKO 10
No. 29: Johnny Shkor. 29-18-2. 220 lbs. TKO 6
No. 30: Ted Lowry. 62-56-10. 180 lbs. UD 10
No. 31: Bill Wilson. 42-11-2. 229 lbs. TKO 1
No. 32: Keene Simmons. 8-8-1. 200 lbs. TKO 8
No. 33: Harold Mitchell. 3-12-3- 181 lbs. TKO 2
No. 34: Art Henri. 13-15-1. 184 lbs. TKO 9
No. 35: Red Applegate. 10-14-2. 196 lbs. UD 10
No. 36: Rex Layne. 34-1-2. 193 lbs. KO 6
No. 37: Freddie Beshore. 30-12-1. 196 lbs. KO 4
No. 38: Joe Louis. 65-2. 213 lbs. KO 8
No. 39: Lee Savold. 93-39-3. 200 lbs. TKO 7
No. 40: Gino Buonvino. 24-14-8. 196 lbs. KO 2
No. 41: Bernie Reynolds. 51-9-2. 185 lbs. KO 3
No. 42: Harry Matthews. 81-3-5. 179 lbs. KO 2
No. 43: Jersey Joe Walcott. 51-16-2. 196 lbs. KO 13
No. 44: Jersey Joe Walcott. 51-17-2. 197 lbs. KO 1
No. 45: Roland LaStarza. 53-3. 184 lbs. TKO 11
No. 46: Ezzard Charles. 80-10-1. 185 lbs. UD 15
No. 47: Ezzard Charles. 80-11-1. 192 lbs. KO 8
No. 48: Don Cockell. 66-11-1. 205 lbs. TKO 9
No. 49: Archie Moore. 148-19-9. 188 lbs. KO 9

Rocky was consistent, never gave up, and had great stamina and power. I greatly respect his undefeated record. It speaks of his understanding what is meant to be a champion. I can understand why his generation idolizes him.

But there have been other great champions in heavyweight history, with just as impressive credentials. Rocky never lost in 49 fights, but he only had 6 defenses. Louis had 25, Holmes 20, Ali 19, Frazier 9. Tunney, Jeffries, Ali, even Lewis, also retired as champions not having lost the title in the ring.

It is Rocky's calibre of opposition, and his showing against it, that is weakness all-time. He won, but he struggled, not in the context of fighting down to an opponent's level, but in that of going all out and banging out victories or quite barely winning against the LaStarzas, Walcotts, Charleses, and Moores that are no Alis, Tysons, Dempseys or Louises.

With respect to head-to-head, Rocky's Aquiles' heel would be his slowness and thus predictability. He could not deliver enough volume at enough speed to catch a prime Ali and would drop a decision, while Tyson would get to him much faster with powershots than vice versa, while effectively telegraphing his own intentions.

For much the same reason, I favor Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Frazier and even Holmes over him.

There is a wealth of talent in the heavyweight ranks. A well-placed goose egg and hero worship should not blind us to it.

 

It has always amazed me how some fighters are perched upon an Olympian pedestal whereas others will give you every last drop of their soul - over time while making notable if extraordinary accomplishment - yet still not get rated as highly as others.

Rocky is an all-time great, I'm just surprised at how many have him fitted for cape and tights whenever discussion of past great heavy kings is brought up.

I'm surprised they haven't created a comic book about him after all these years.......

 

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

 

Walcott 1 was a tough fight but Rocky Knocked him out, That same Walcott would have given anyone fits including Ali. Walcott gave Louis a tough time in both fights and had Louis on the floor 3 times, Charles was another fighter who would have given anyone a tough fight. Do you not think Charles was a better fighter than Doug Jones. Title defences can be decieving in Holmes case he had a split crown and a lot of the fighters he gave title shots to were really just build up fights, very few of them were really title shot materiel, so his defence record is padded and he avoided(for Whatever reason) too many high rated contenders or title unification fights and never rematched tough fights. Marciano was a dominant Champion and he fought his #1 contender 5 times out of 6 defences and fought the # 2 contender Don Cokell 1 time. Now if you think Marciano struggled with Cockel, I would advise you to watch that fight again...Cockell had heart and fought it out getting up(he reconized the opportunity, but the fight was not a struggle. Again Marciano was just a man not a superman but none of the Heavyweight Champs you mentioned are either, they are just men, not GODS or Superheros....Marciano would not be an easy fight for anyone

 

You still haven't answered my question. What has happened to the 185-190 lbs world beaters today? Why was Marciano the last dominant HW under 200 lbs and why was Patterson the last HW champion under 200, period?

 

Heavyweight don't train to make weight anymore...Marciano used to run 10 miles or more a day, he ate like an animal but ran and worked it off. He used to punch a 300 lb bag. One thing I can tell you the pace of his fights were in fast motion compared to today. and they were 15 rounders. I think the Heavyweights today just muscle up and gain weight but can not fight 6-8 active rds....but again do you think James Toney should weigh over 230, he was 210 vs Holyfield and then again of all the all -time greats how many weighed over 220....have not been too many when the 15 rounders were still in affect

 

Wladimir K is hardly fat. Perhaps he could lose another 10 lbs (but only perhaps), but he would still be huge. The same can be said of Lewis and many others of the modern superheavies.

Yes, 12 rounds benefit the big guys without a doubt. But you could see the change already when there was still 15 rounds. After Patterson every champion was 200+ lbs even when 15 rounds was still in effect, and in most cases 210-220 (Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes). And I hardly think that the 50 or so lbs that separate Marciano from most of the best HWs today only is down to three rounds.

 

nice read monte.

 

BS. Walcott, Charles, Moore were all very good/great fighters that Marciano knocked out, faulting him and dropping him down half a dozen notches simply because his resume doesn't have a Frazier is absurd when the man goes unbeaten. I guess if he lost and then avenged the defeat it would move him ahead in Cox's eyes.

I like reading Montes stuff I've been reading it a lot lately in fact, but he doesn't give Marciano his due.

 

You keep saying that, but why hasn't any small HWs stepped up and just beat Wladimir? Why haven't we seen a dominant HW under 200 lbs for more than 50 years?

 

The same thing that has happened to the 210 lb world-beaters like Ali. Fighters are getting bigger.

 

:good Fighters are getting bigger and the distance has gotten shorter, Vlad is a great conditioned heavy and so was Lennox but I do not think either had a Superheavyweight Chin and I do not think either would like a to get hit flush by Marciano, Louis or Dempsey dispite the weight factor

 

Obviously not but they wouldn't want to get hit by Wlad/Lewis either.

 

I am sure they wouldn't but the point is that they were 189lb -200 lb fighter that had freaky power for that size ask some of there bigger opponents