Rocky Marciano has a very good case for #1...

How many punches did Bonavena land in the entire fight? Give me your totals.

Did you honestly consider this a competitive fight? How many rounds would you give Bonavena?

Watch the youtube film of the 1966 Chuvalo fight to see a competitive fight.

 

ali looked bad in it. any fool can see it by watching the fight.

 

Folley was old and slow, if a good boxer, but I wondered watching what you showed how Ali would do today when he would have to fight boxers who would not be totally outsized. Other than the knockdown, what you showed of the Folley fight was not that impressive.

"Any fool can see it by watching the fight."

Okay.

 

luigi, i think rocky was very good but to say he was the best of all-time i can't accept. how many fans lists have him above ali. 99% don't and it's for good reasons. face it, the 50s were weak. the best contenders were old like Louis and Walcott or great LHW like Moore and Charles. No big hitting great heavys he faced. not like Ali did v Foreman and Liston. Frazier that Ali lost to after exile - No shame in that as he wasn't ready as watching the Bonavena fight shows. Actually Ali did a great performance cuz i realize how hard it is for any fighter to get back to their best after a very long lay-off. Frazier was at his peak and i pick him to beat rocky and have 49-0 record in the 50s.

fogey, that was ali playing with someone. he wasn't playing with bonavena, he was struggling. folley had a good quick right hand to me but unfortunately not in ali's class. few if any were before exile. but the speed of foot, movement with angles, is all there to see in pre-exile ali. after exile he just wasn't the same. but i can understand this and he was still great.

 

6'2 214lb Joe Louis? also Nino Valdez, Bob Baker, and Coley Wallace were out there. all big hitters contenders

 

Look at today's best distance runners who are 21-26 achieving their best times, its usually down hill after that, they are leagues ahead of those cats you mentioned, 5000m is optimal for VO2 Maximisation, marathon runners are a different kettle of fish and can go on to later years, pro-boxing is more about maximal VO2 levels, combined with speed and strength.

Bare in mind boxers usually have poor diets between fights, dont have the same training regime between fights so age quicker, especially 20-30years ago. So this really hurts a fighter having a break. But even if you compare modern fighters who fought 4-5times a year and dropped to 1-2times, they usually drop off their game.

Ali in the 1970s had even developed a gutt, which is an obvious sign of decline

 

suzie, i'm not talking about louis but rocky. he faced a big hitting LHW in archie moore. please don't bring an old louis in to it like tyson fans do for beating a past it slower holmes.

 

I didn´t say he was the best, I said it´s a possibility. That most have Ali at 1st, don´t have to do with their knowledge, it has to do with the propaganda IMO, little kids with no ideas of other fighters say things like "Ali, the greatest boxer ever" and similar things, they don´t study him and compare him to others, they talk the same what the others around them say...

 

Then why didn't you watch his fight against Terrell?

I wonder as well, though. I won't rule out that Ali would struggle against one of the modern giants. In his career he didn't have too much trouble with the big guys he faced, though. The ones who gave him most trouble were all smaller than him (Jones, Frazier, Norton, Young, Spinks).

 

I agree, in all fairness can Ali be # 1...he could be ...could Marciano be # 1, he could be...I personally have Louis at # 1 but could Marciano beat him prime for prime could very well be that he can...Was Ali a great fighter yes but he was not without flaws and I am not ashamed to say he would have a very tough time with Marciano and louis as they would with him....that is my top 3 but when I see someone say Marciano was only 188lbs he could not hurt Ali and Ali was dropped and shook up by the likes of 185lb Henry Cooper who was KO'd 5 times before Ali, 191lb Sonny Banks, 188lb Doug Jones and 205 lb Joe Frazier and they say Ali would have killed Marciano, I have to laugh, just be fair, I know it bothers some people because they dont like Italian/Americans just like some people dont like Black or Jewish fighters or other ethnic groups,,,some guys dont like Mexicans....but is Ali a sure thing for the greatest...was Joe LOuis...Was Marciano...It depends on your opinion...In my opinion Marciano was top 3, I have him at 2, with Louis as 1 and Ali at 3 but I would not argue is you had any of them in anyone of those spots

 

Not faster, but I did mention Tommy would be put in a coma.

 

I did watch the fight with Terrell. You have a point but it is kind of difficult to judge what to make of this fight as Terrell suffered an eye injury.

Most of Ali's opponents were smaller than he was. Today they would be larger. Norton was close to his size and he had an awful lot of trouble with him. Lyle gave him trouble also. In fairness, he handled Foreman and Liston. The best modern heavys though would be 30 to 40 pounds heavier and a couple of inches taller and he would have to deal with longer and possibly more troubling jabs.

 

I really don't think that Lyle gave him trouble. Yes, he was slightly ahead, but that was just because Ali gave rounds away, waiting for Lyle to tire himself. Lyle hardly ever landed really clean blows, whereas Ali seemed to be able to get to him every time he opened up. He rocked Lyle in rd 8, the round he had predicted as the last, coasted a couple of more rounds, then came out with intent in rd 11 and took him out.

Ali took a chance by giving so many rounds away, but he was firmly in control the whole time IMO. Jones gave a young and somewhat green Ali much more trouble, I would say.

Throughout his career he had the most trouble with relatively small, fast fighters with good stamina and high workrate (Jones, Young, Spinks). Norton and Frazier had all this, and also brought considerable strength and power to the table. It's interesting to note that "Neon Leon" succeeded where Shavers had narrowly failed in the previous fight.

But, as I said, I don't rule out that the modern giants would spell trouble for Ali. He wouldn't have the reach and wouldn't be able to push the around in the clinches. On the other hand they have much less workrate and are a lot slower, even compared to Ali in the 70's. Ali would throw more body punches.

Ali against his biggest opponents:

Liston - handled him with relative ease.

Williams and Terrell - mismatches

Mathis - more fat than big really, but an Ali in very bad shape handled him easy.

Lewis - He was game, but it was really one-sided. Should have been counted out in the 5th already.

Bugner - Two easy wins.

Foreman - handled him wih relative ease (his kidneys would probably tell another story, though).

Lyle - Much easier than the scorecards suggested (see above)


Norton, who was somewhat lighter but with the same height and reach, was the biggest of Ali's really tough opponents. (I don't count Holmes and Berbick here).

 

Fogey you haven't named one fight after the exile where Ali moved as he did against Williams, Terrell, Patterson I, Cooper II, Mildenberger etc, etc.

Also, did we agree that Ali didn't age between 25-28?