Rocky Marciano has a very good case for #1...

tylerrcurtis · Aug 24, 2008

not 1 i say he is deff top ten but i think he is a tad overrated due to the 49-0 record

PowerPuncher · Aug 24, 2008

You can make a case for Marciano being No1 but I stopped reading after seeing Dempsey and Tunney in his top5

he grant · Aug 24, 2008

Dempsey: Exactly ...

Magoo: BY the way, great ass !!!

mr. magoo · Aug 24, 2008

Marciano Frazier said:

It's the FIGHTS/KOs ratio that matters, not wins/KOs. Otherwise, a guy who's 3-10 (3 KOs) has a higher knockout percentage than Foreman or Marciano. Marciano has the highest knockout percentage of any linear heavyweight champions.

Marciano had fewer title fights than Ali and Louis, but they had far more "throw-away" title fights than he did; Marciano had only one semi-throw-away title defense, that being the Cockell fight, which was still against a legitimate contender. Ali and Louis made a substantial portion of their title defenses against guys like Bob Roper, Richard Dunn, an old, shot-in-the-gut Cleveland Williams, etc. who were clearly not qualified challengers. Thus, I think the overall "substance" of Marciano's title reign as compared with Ali's and Louis' is much closer than an unadulterated "number-of-title-fights" statistic would lead one to believe.
Of course, even still, Ali and Louis had far greater top-tier longevity than Marciano did, with Rocky only fighting at the elite level for about five years in total, whereas they each had a span of three times that length in which they were competing near the top. If one places great emphasis on longevity, then yes, it is difficult to place Marciano ahead of Ali or Louis. I, too, place a good deal of emphasis on longevity, and so I also rank Ali and Louis ahead of Marciano; however, if one's criteria are slightly different, I think an all-time #1 ranking for Marciano is entirely reasonable. Surely it can't be unreasonable to rank the only undefeated heavyweight champion in history who had the most consecutive wins and highest knockout average of any linear champion, was 7-0 with 6 knockouts in world title fights, and defeated all of the top four to five best opponents of his era in clear-cut and decisive fashion as the greatest in history. For me, he's #4, but if one is being objective, I think the case for placing him as high as one wishes has to be seen as reasonable.
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True.

A Rock · Aug 24, 2008

the best names on his resume were old men and physically he was very small compared to the HWs of the 60s or 70s.

he was w/o a doubt an ATG but theres no way a prime Joe Louis wouldnt have taken him to school

Bokaj · Aug 24, 2008

A Rock said:

he was w/o a doubt an ATG but theres no way a prime Joe Louis wouldnt have taken him to school
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I wouldn't be too sure about that. Marciano matches up pretty well h2h against other ATGs IMO. Foreman, Tyson and Lewis might just be too big, strong and powerful, but otherwise...

ChrisPontius · Aug 24, 2008

Well, if you can justify Tunney in your top5, then Marciano at #1 is not unreasonable by comparison. I would strongly suggest moving Ibeabuchi in the top5 as well, however.

he grant · Aug 24, 2008

Dmille: Bullseye !!! very perceptive !!!

TommyV · Aug 24, 2008

PowerPuncher said:

You can make a case for Marciano being No1 but I stopped reading after seeing Dempsey and Tunney in his top5
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You actually read that far?

There is no way you can justify having Marciano as the greatest heavyweight of all-time.

TommyV · Aug 24, 2008

Carmelo Modica said:

Gene Tunney deserves a place in the top 5 as much as Ali does. Ali beat Joe Frazier and George Foreman, Tunney beat Harry Greb and Jack Dempsey twice. Let me repeat that: he beat Harry Greb and Jack Dempsey twice each.

He was as fast as Ali, and had less power but better stamina. His record of 81-1 speaks for itself. Tunney and Ali were very similar. I never know who to put first on my lists.

I might ask ChrisPontius and Powerpuncher, if there is any logic to your disagreement on Tunney, or are you just shooting your mouths off?
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Credit to Tunney for his wins over Dempsey, but it can't be denied that these were at the end of Dempsey's career. Greb, as good as he is p4p (he is my #2) is a natural middleweight.

Tunney does not deserve a place in any top 5 heavyweights of all time list.

Brian123 · Aug 24, 2008

I disagree with Tyson beating Rocky but Demsey-yes.

Superfuzz · Aug 24, 2008

FrankieCas said:

for the reasons posted by Carmelo Modica:

My list of the top 5 heavyweights is:

1. Marciano, and in the next four positions, in no particular order: Dempsey, Louis, Tunney, Ali.

It isn't apparent at first, but when you start comparing Marciano's fights to any of the 70's boxers, you start to see what made Marciano almost unbeatable. He had virtually endless stamina, in fact he had the best stamina in boxing history. He punched for 15 rounds and never got tired. He would never give his opponent a second to catch his breath. Could you imagine if Ali had fought Marciano instead of Frazier? There would be no "cruising" through a round to recover energy. Ali would have been KO'd if he slowed down even for one second against Marciano. Watch the first Ezzard Charles-Rocky Marciano fight. No cruising allowed. Plus he was small enough to hit anyone on the chin. His bigger opponents were all brutalized. I would give George Foreman little chance against him. To beat Marciano, it would take a fast, smaller man like Gene Tunney, to outbox him and win a decision. But it would have to be Tunney on his best day ever. Marciano had better stamina than Dempsey. You would have to hit Rocky frequently to win points, but each time you hit, he would have a good chance to hit you with his stronger punches. Two guys tried to stick-and-move Marciano: Roland LaStarza and Harry Kid Matthews. They were both KO'd. LaStarza lost by SD the first time, but even there he was floored for 7. Marciano had lost a round for a low blow, or it would have been unanimous.

Every strategy has been tried against Marciano. Joe Walcott tried to give him everything he had in round one, in an attempt to knock him out early. Marciano was floored for 2 seconds and got up as if nothing had happened, and proceeded with his usual slow-but-steady demolition.

I think Tunney, LaStarza and Ali would have been capable of beating Marciano on points in maybe one out of five fights. But no more than that. Watch the LaStarza and Matthews fights on youtube and you'll see why I'm so pessimistic.
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This is great reading. I agree with you. I have had Rocky Marciano on the top of my list also. There have been lists of the greatest boxers compiled before, and very few have Rocky at the top, but usually just top ten. His head movement is very underrated.

lfsdan · Aug 24, 2008

He was great but not #1. I just think he'd be too small for some of the other top heavys in history.

salsanchezfan · Aug 24, 2008

Carmelo Modica said:

There are several myths being spread here, so I'll tackle them one by one.

1. SIZE: Lots of people say Marciano was too small to compare to today's HWs. But what does that mean? Do big HWs always beat smaller ones? When we think about "big vs small", most of us usually think of the same two fights: Willard vs Dempsey and Carnera vs Baer. If the small guy has talent, his small stature is an advantage, because it's harder to hit him on the chin. According to East Side Boxing's "Rocky Marciano - The Unstoppable Force" web article, Carmine Vingo weighed 220 lbs when he fought Marciano, who was 185. They traded countless hard hooks for 6 rounds, Marciano was staggered several times but never stopped punching, eventually knocking out Vingo and putting him in a coma. Vingo was 16-1 and had never been floored when he fought Rocky. He could have been championship material, but we'll never know because Marciano ended his career like he did to so many of his opponents (see Layne and LaStarza). If the "big guy" theory had any validity, Marciano and Dempsey would have been KO'd at least once.

2. STAMINA: Lee Savold and Roland LaStarza were hit so hard and so frequently that after about 15 minutes they could no longer throw punches, making them sitting ducks for Marciano. Both fights had to be stopped. LaStarza was brought to the hospital to remove pieces of chipped bone from his arms. This is why Marciano's fights seem so easy. People who don't see this think Marciano's opponents were bums, but the reason they looked like bums is that Rocky wore them out with his non-stop hitting. No one in boxing history had anything close to Marciano's stamina. Watch his fights and compare him to other boxers. Then add his punching speed, power and iron chin, and placing Marciano n.1 will become almost an afterthought. Which other boxer can boast all of these attributes? Ali didn't have the power, and suffered against swarmers. Foreman was a predictable puncher, and suffered against elusive boxers like Ali and Jimmy Young. Dempsey had everything except he was lacking slightly in the stamina department. Tyson had serious stamina issues. Marciano would weather Tyson's early storm (like he did with Walcott) and force him into the late rounds, where Marciano takes no prisoners. As for Liston: if Ali could KO Liston twice in 7 rounds, I have serious doubts as to whether Sonny could last through Marciano's 15-round hell for more than a few minutes.

3. AGE: As for the "Marciano only fought old men" myth, let's compare his record to Muhammad Ali's. Marciano took the title from Walcott who was 9 years older than him, but Ali took it from Sonny Liston who, on paper, was 10 years older than Ali, but many believe (including Ali himself) that Liston was almost 20 years older than Ali.

Marciano fought Archie Moore who was 39, but Ali fought Archie when he was 46! And Joe Louis was 37 when he fought Marciano, but Floyd Patterson was the same age when he fought Ali in 1972. Ali also fought Zora Folley (36), George Chuvalo (35), Bob Foster (34), and Cleveland Williams (34) who had recently been shot in the stomach! Ali even had the guts to tease Moore and Williams when they were down.

4. DEFENSES: Marciano only had 6 title defenses, but in each case the opponent actually deserved a shot at the title. Even Don Cockell was a European champ who had recently defeated some of Marciano's opponents. He was ranked n.2 at the time. Ali defended his title against people who did not deserve a shot. What did Chuck Wepner and Richard Dunn do to deserve a shot at the title? I dare you to look at Richard Dunn's record, he had no wins over any decent fighters. Ali could have defended against George Foreman instead, who in the meantime had just beaten Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier. Ali's ridiculous reign was only given a tidbit of credibility when Jimmy Young won a UD over Foreman in 1977.
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.............I'm sorry, but your claim that "no one in boxing history" having Marciano's stamina is nothing more than supposition. I need for you to come back at with me with something more than the typical crap of "he just kept coming and wearing you down." That means nothing. Bring me something that spells out exactly how his stamina was so much better than anyone else who was known for great stamina.

I challenge you on this knowing full well it simply cannot be answered. Bit of a trap, you see. What was his oxygen uptake level? Any idea? No, of course you haven't.

Maxmomer · Aug 24, 2008

Hilarious. Marciano has no case for No. 1 at all. No way he rates higher than Ali or Louis.

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Rocky Marciano has a very good case for #1...

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Rocky Marciano has a very good case for #1...

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