Rocky Marciano has a very good case for #1...

Whatever weakness Johansson and Dempsey saw (both thought he was open to straight right hands?), they based it on footage of Liston during his prime. The talk that Liston was undertrained, past his best, etc, only started after Clay outclassed him.

 

Ok. The Johansson thing I actually knew about, come to think about. But he gave his opinions on Liston's fight against Machen, so they were not about Liston being old, he just wasn't very impressed by Liston overall.

Dempsey's points also seem to be about Liston in general, not his state before meeting Clay/Ali. Or am I wrong?

What exactly did d'Amato say? Did he think that Liston was aging, or that he just wasn't that good to begin with?

 

Yes, this group for the most part did not think he was all that good--slow, vulnerable to a right counter, unproven stamina, etc.

It has been years since I read the D'Amato remarks, but he came down hard on Liston winning his fights because his opponents were intimidated going in and that he would fold against the first guy to give him a tough fight. Ted Carroll, who was quoting D'Amato, remarked that this was actually a pretty rough criticism of Patterson. This article was in a Ring of late 1963 or early 1964. I lost many of my Rings when my apartment flooded back in the eighties. I remember that the article was entitled something like "Liston--Monster, or Myth?"

By the way, there is also an article in the Sport's Illustrated archives about Liston's first trainer, Monroe Harrison, in which Harrison gives the opinion that Liston's "drive the jab through a wall" style was flawed. He felt Sonny should have been taught to throw a quicker but snappier jab. As is, he missed a lot and was moving forward into counters, and if his jab connected, it tended to drive his opponent too far back to allow for an effective followup with the right.

 

Ok. Thanks for the interesting information. Should maybe be a thread. Suzie Q would no doubt get involved.

But it doesn't change the fact that no one thought of Liston as past it before Ali schooled him.

 

Yes but Dempsey/Johanson/D'amto could both be 'player hating' on the new champ, most new champs get critiscism for jealous former champs or former champs trainers

 

Perhaps. But were they right or wrong?

 

He was right....not too many people thought that about Sonny nor Tyson but fighters can see it sometimes....Liston was the first major intimidator...Foreman(before comeback) and Tyson came later....Dempsey was the 1st one to intimidate his opponents

 

Will Clay had been down in 2 fights to much lesser opponents and fought a close fight against a LHW. Liston had just cleared out the whole division. I think most including those mentioned expected Liston to smoke the 22yo Clay but just wanted to talk down to Liston not truly believing he'd lose anytime soon. Anyone have the odds for this 1??

Plus I think Johansson's comments weren't criticisms of Liston but ojective analysis, and correct me if I'm wrong but Johansson didn't pick anyone over the man who twice destroyed the man who beat him.

 

1. Why was Jones a LHW? He weighed 188 for Ali. Patterson weighed 189 for Liston.
2. Johansson did not pick an active fighter over Liston.
3. "Liston cleared out the whole division."
He might have come close in 1960, but not thereafter. In 1962, he had not fought the #2, #3, and #4 contenders, Clay, Jones, and Johansson. By 1963 he had not fought the top three contenders, Clay, Jones, and Terrell. By 1964, he had lost to Muhammad Ali, and had not fought the #3 and #5 contenders, Terrell and Chuvalo. Of the top men between 1962 and 1964, defined as being rated in the Ring's top five, Liston defeated Patterson, Folley, and Williams. He lost to Ali. He did not fight Johansson, Jones, Terrell, and Chuvalo.
4. Most certainly thought Liston would "smoke" Ali. Were they right? The minority critics certainly look more prescient.

 

They seem to have some insightful analysises. Suzie Q should really give his input on this. Personally, I think Ali was all wrong for Liston, since he was perfect at exploiting these very weaknesses.

It would have been interesting to see how Ali would have dealt with Wladimir's jab, that's both snappy and powerful. W's reach from shoulder to fingertip isn't longer than Ali's though, if it's as long even. If he would've been outreached by Ali, he would have been in loads of trouble.

 

Liston was the 8:1 favorite. In other words, Clay didn't have a chance in hell. In the rematch, i think it was still slightly in Liston's favor, 7:5 or so. Given the Clay's shaky resume up to that point, one can hardly blame them.



Then again, Dempsey was the 7:1 favorite against Miske. Did they know about Bright's disease? Was the fight on the level, given the fact that Miske pretty much went even with Dempsey two years earlier? I've read about fighters losing to him on the onset of the disease, basically as a charity, but i don't know how truthful those are.

 

They must have known about the disease. Dempsey and Kearns did. Dempsey was no more than 4-1 against any other challenger and Miske was a respected fighter who had twice fought Dempsey on fairly even terms in 1918. I see no reason for the odds to be that long except for the illness.

 

i heard through the grapevine that liston was being considered as the best heavy of all-time before the clay fight - many thought he wouldn't be beat. you can say liston wasn't fighting many rounds but that's not his fault if was knocking everyone out early. clay was great and that's why he beat him. liston never lost a fight in 10 years before clay and had one loss on his record and had a broken jaw in that fight. how many fighters fought marciano or louis with a 10 year unbeaten record. actually when ali fought frazier and foreman they both had unbeaten records . and still some dumb posters say they are only rated cuz they fought ali. unbelievable at the end of the day ali fought in the most competitive era, liston, frazier and foreman were all ATG heavies. period.

 

Frasier would have shattered the ROCK... Head and Body.

Foreman would have knocked his balding melon off his shoulders.

The same men would have handled Ezzard with utter distain..

 

I saw Foreman struggle to hurt Peralta...Charles would have ate him up that night and the Foreman that lost to Jimmy Young would have had a lot of trouble with a harder punching Charles or Walcott and equally as skilled , I would bet THAT Foreman would have been dropped and stopped by those guys on those nights....and Remember fighters like Holyfield and Foreman had balding heads but shaved it...As far as Frazier the only puncher he faced in Marciano's class was Foreman...and Lyle had Forman rocked and on ***** street and down twice..the same Lyle that went into the defensive mode after feeling Some of Quarrys power....Marciano had more power, more heart and greater stamina than Lyle so we dont know how Foreman and Frazier would have handled him despite his balding head