Rocky Marciano picked Patterson to beat Liston

You make a couple excellent points. As far as Valdes power concerns, you need to take a look at the European Heavyweight Scene during the mid-late 1950s and notice the devastating effect Valdes had on it.


Don Cockell, Heinz Neuhas, Dick Richardson, Brian London, Karel Sys, Joe Erkskine. Top European heavyweights. Valdes went 6-0 with 6 knockouts against these men. Valdes destroyed undefeated Joe Erkskine in one round. Erksine beat Henry Cooper in his next fight and went 13 rounds with Johansson.

 

1) I do not see how you could rate Cooper over Valdez in 1958. Cooper lost a decision to Joe Erkskine, who Valdes blew away in one round. He did upset Folley in a hometown decision, but he also lost to unrated erik schoppner that year.


2) I do not think the Valdez-Savold comparison is a good one. Valdes despite his limitations, still hit abundantly hard in 1958. Savold did not have a punch like valdes, so he was not even a threat to marciano like Valdes was to Patterson. In fact the much trimmer less rusty version of Savold who fought Louis looked a lot better than the savold who tangled with marciano a year later. Valdes went on to score a stoppage victory over a solid fringe contender in Brian London. Savold never recorded such a victory post Marciano.


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Valdes never KOd brian London. The fight was even when it was stopped on a cut. there were no kockdowns. London was furious since he climbed all over nino overwhelming him at times. brian was so disgusted that in the interview afterwards he said patterson was a difrent class to nino.

Brian London was unrated when he got the shot at patterson. he was even fined for taking a shot at the title without being a british champion, a rule that was policed in the UK.

 

Yes, I've had more practice being in tune with reality.

I could do this all day by the way.

 

"I do not think the Valdes-Savold comparision is a good one."

I disagree. I think it is excellent. According to Boxrec, Savold scored 71 ko's in his career, including:

Ford Smith, Maurice Strickland, Lou Brooks, Buddy Knox, Lou Nova (2), Bill Poland, Johnny Flynn, Nate Bolden, Lem Franklin (2), Eddie Blunt, Bob Garner, Kid Riviera, Buddy Walker, and Bruce Woodcock.

These knockouts were spread between 1936 (Smith) and 1939 (Strickland) through the forties to Woodcock (1950).

Valdes scored 36 ko's in his career, including:

Omelio Agramonte, Heinz Neuhaus, Karol Sys, Hurricane Jackson, Don Cockell, Dick Richardson, Hans Friedrich, Joe Erskine, Johnny Summerlin, Harold Carter, Pat McMurtry, and Brian London.

Both men scored a number of ko's and stoppages of second-tier fighters, and a couple here and there of top contenders. Both blew some out early--Erskine and McMurtry for Valdes. Blunt and Walker for Savold. Valdes had been a bit more active, but Savold had the bigger late career victory over Woodcock. Valdes had been stopped by the mediocre Powell to drop out of a contender sport. Savold's similar loss was to an old but still capable Joe Louis. They were about the same age. Valdes did win one more fight after fighting Liston while Savold threw in the towel, but losses to Louis and Marciano do not prove to me Savold was incapable of beating a fringe type of the London sort.

I see these two as very well matched fighters.

 

I dont think Nino Valdes was much good, esp. not at that stage.

The RING magazine ratings were often crap. They might have been accepted as sacred scripture at the time but that doesn't change the fact that they were often arbitrary and seriously flawed, often just the absurd whim of a single individual.

Charley Powell beat Valdes by stoppage but the RING kept Valdes ahead of Powell in their ratings.

 

1) I believe the version of Savold who fought Louis looked alot better than the one who fought Marciano. The one who fought Marciano looked out of shape, overweight, no workrate, no movement, he looked shot to pieced. Louis ruined savold a year earlier.

2) You can throw around numbers and I am fine with that, but Valdes reputation as a puncher was always bigger than Savold's according to most news reads I read. Valdes was known as a slugger who could take you out with 1-2 punches. Savold was more of a crafty polished boxer who used an accumulative of punches to break down his foes. Valdes was 6'3 210lb, while Savold was 6' only 190lb. I don't believe Savold had that 1 punch power threat Valdes did in his right hand. Savold did have a good counter right, but Valdes had a knockout right hand. Look at the massacre of Hurricane Jackson, a strong very durable heavyweight who survived Patterson for 22 rounds. Valdes blasted that chin away, and it all started with one right hand which sent Jackson sprawing into the ropes.

3) Bottom line is while I think the numbers do match up, I do not think Savold passes the eye test like Valdes does in terms of 'punching'.



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xucbDkwcH5A[/ame]
Also look at the use of Valdes jab in this fight. It's fantastic.

 

That's a fair enough reason for that Valdes-Powell case then, I guess.

 

1. On Valdes-Jackson--you were impressed by Valdes' jab? He hardly threw any. Actually, I thought Jackson showed the more impressive jab. Valdes was swinging for the fences.

2. On Valdes' punch--Valdes could certainly punch, but this isn't quite the unmatched display of punching power to my eyes that you make it. He hurt Jackson and knocked him down once honestly. The other two--I don't know-looked like pushes or push punches to me, especially the last knockdown. One thing is for certain. Valdes didn't really put Jackson away. The three knockdown rule did. Jackson was in better shape at the end than he was earlier. That three knockdown rule wasn't around in the thirties or forties in most venues.

3. "Valdes reputation as a puncher was always bigger than Savold's"--Oh, with whom and when? Could you quote the source? Frankly, I haven't seem either ever listed among the all time big punchers nor compared with them, or each other.

4. "Valdes was known as a slugger who could take you out with 1-2 punches"--Okay.

5. "Savold was more of a crafty polished boxer who used an accumulation of punches to break down his foes."--Well, I know stats bore you, but Savold scored 13 first round ko's and 15 second round ko's in 149 bouts. Valdes had 6 first round ko's and 9 second round ko's in 71 fights. Again, rather even. And who did they knock out? Well, you can point to Valdes ko'ing Erskine and McMurtry in one. I would point to Savold ko'ing Eddie Blunt and Buddy Walker in one. Blunt was 220 lbs for that fight, and as you know beat such top men as Jack Trammell, LeRoy Haynes, Al Gainor, Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Nathan Mann, and Savold over the years. Savold knocked him down 4 times and out in 62 seconds. Walker, a one time #5 contender, was taken out in 44 seconds. Savold also ko'd journeyman Gino Buonvino in 54 seconds. This seems to be pretty strong evidence of early power.

6. "Valdes was 6' 3" and 210 lbs while Savold was 6' only 190 lbs."--But Savold definitely ko'd the bigger men. Blunt was 220 lbs and taken out in one. Ford Smith was 221 and taken out in 4. Lem Franklin and Lou Nova were impressively proportioned 200 plus pounders and Savold ko'd both twice. Other than Neuhaus, most of Valdes' major ko victims were not that big. The heaviest was the fat Don Cockell at 218. If you look carefully at Valdes' record, you see that his power waned as the men got bigger. Baker, Gilliam, DeJohn, Powell, Bethea, Miteff, Liston--Valdes ko'd none of them.

7. You showed the DeJohn ko of Powell and were impressed. Okay. Fair enough. But I wonder how impressive the Savold ko of Blunt, knocking him down 4 times and stopping him in 62 seconds, would look. Blunt was definitely a better fighter over his whole career than Powell. There is no film of Savold in his prime. Doesn't mean he didn't knock out 71 opponents.

 

1. I meant use of "right hand". Not jab. My mistake.

2. There are many different sources out there which state Valdes as a 'big puncher'. I will post them later. Have you found any sources that claim savold as a 'big puncher'. I would love to read him.

Honestly,

You make a good case for Savold. I am impressed with his overall career. I do think he is underrated as a puncher. I believe his counter right hand was his money punch. Savold was a crafty boxer. I do believe Savold was shot to pieces when he fought Marciano. Savold looked much leaner, faster, and just plain lively against joe louis. Louis ruined savold. A very underrated knockout victory for Louis. This was the equivalent of Louis winning the WBA heavyweight title belt.




Here is an interesting piece on Archie Moore and how much he had "aged" by 1954.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...&pg=4073,1449021&dq=nino+valdes+puncher&hl=en

 

1. Valdes' right hand--he had a good right and hurt Jackson with it. His attempts at finishing were clumsy and amateurish. He was fortunate the three knockdown rule bailed him out. But he certainly could punch.

2. I am certain one can dig out press reports that Valdes was a big puncher. Why not? I would be surprised if one could dig out a report that Savold couldn't punch and I wouldn't personally give it any credence anyway. His record proves he could punch.

3. I think Savold and Valdes balance out pretty closely. The big difference is that Savold was an in and out contender over a very long period of time, being rated from 1939 to 1951. Valdes jammed almost all of his positive fights into two good runs, from 1953 to 1955, and 1957 & 1958. As punchers I would rate them on par. I would give Valdes a slight edge historically because of his upset of Charles.

4. I don't know if Savold was out of shape against Marciano as you imply. He had many fights in which he came in at that weight over his career and many in which he weighed over 195 or more and performed well. He weighed 195 for his knockout of Blunt nine years earlier. Five pounds isn't a great deal for a heavyweight. It might also be that Marciano's awkward style made him look less polished. Savold actually shows a great deal of ability at slipping and rolling with punches.

 

Old Fogey,

You have yet to comment on my rebuttal of valdes over cooper in 58. Why should cooper be rated over valdez in 58 when cooper twice lost to joe erkskine, whom Nino Valdes knocked out in one round?

 

bump for fog man