Rocky Marciano Versus Oleksandr Usyk

Hi Buddy.
This warmed the cockles of my heart, humility, and honesty, how refreshing and soothing on the eye, well done swag you have acted like a real man, and from a most knowledgeable and informative long term poster, the more entrenched and hostile members please look and learn.
stay safe buddy, chat soon.

 

Honestly I'd be fine doing that if he acknowledged my points because it feels like he ignored them to take shots at me at a certain point (though I'm guilty of that as well lol) but perhaps I'm a bit biased.

 

No credit for me? Man I feel ignored

 

Hi Buddy.
Sorry, you played your part in being accepting and obliging, that must not be overlooked, forgive me.
stay safe buddy, chat soon.

 

Cheers mate. Means a lot coming from you!

 

lol Don't wanna get in the middle of that, but I'd also like to apologize for my ad hominem attacks and insults. Forgot to do so earlier.

 

Appreciate it! I also apologize as well for any insults and ad hominems. Cheers!

 

A-ah Swag.

I ultimately rested on my positions and thorough address of all relevant aspects which I stand by. I also showed that I didn’t need to last word freak it. Let’s leave well enough alone.

 

Let me clarify it in plain terms then.

My position is that Louis stellar success against big men (undefeated with numerous knockouts) indicates that you can't write off medium sized heavies (about 6'2-6'4, 75-78' reach, 210-230 lbs) primarily because of size.

My argument is not that size doesn't matter. Obviously if you're taller, heavier, or have a longer reach, those can be advantageous in a fight regardless of skill. I'm only saying that if you're talking about the really special medium sized heavies such as Louis, Ali, or Usyk, that simply being bigger doesn't mean much unless you're stellar in multiple areas aside from just size.

As for Usyk vs Rocky, if it's at Cruiserweight I wouldn't write Rocky off, but I'd favor Usyk. He's got the edge in speed, technique, defense, accuracy, ring IQ, etc, but Rocky was the embodiment of toughness, stamina, and power. His relentless swarming could offset Usyk's desire to carefully choose his shots in short bursts and to move about the ring. At heavyweight, Usyk's extra 20 lbs of bulk might give him an even greater edge as Rocky had very few medium sized heavies on his record, let alone ones as good as Usyk.

 

I definitely agree with your main point, what sets someone like Buddy Baer apart from Wlad or Lennox is the combination of skill and how they use their physical advantages. But I’d also add that for a smaller fighter to overcome a size disadvantage, that’s a skill in itself, especially when they’re up against someone who knows how to use their size effectively. That’s why fighters like Joe Louis or Usyk are so special, they were able to consistently overcome those challenges.

 

Yes, and the fact Louis overcome size disadvantages every time means that he simply cannot be written off even against modern sized super heavies. Even though Lewis, Wladmir, etc are obviously more skilled than fighters such as Baer or Carnera, the footage and record clearly show that simply being bigger than Louis isn't enough of an advantage. Carnera was freaking huge, as strong as a bull, and knew how to use his height and reach, yet Louis picked him apart.

 

That's true, Louis would always have a chance. But the question is whether he could overcome not just the size advantage, but also the skill level of someone like Wlad or Lewis. These are genuinely skilled heavyweights with excellent jabs, distance control and the ability to frustrate opponents trying to close the distance. Unfortunately, there were never any super heavyweights like Wlad or Lewis during Louis’s time as champion, so we don’t know exactly how he’d handle someone with their combination of size and skill. It would definitely be a tough challenge, and while I’m not sure he’d be able to overcome it, I certainly wouldn’t count him out. But against any avg SHW it would be hard not to favor Louis to knock them out as he has a track record of doing.

 

Well it really boils down to 3 things: the SHW jab, Louis' endurance, and the ref.

If Louis could manage to get past those long heavy jabs, he's won 1/3 of the fight. 2/3 of the fight is whether he could adjust to a big man actually having decent timing, accuracy, and technique to go along with his immense power/height/reach. Louis would not only need the endurance to handle that unique combination of size+technique he never encountered, he'd also need to adjust his parrying/defensive skills (the bigger gloves and shorter rounds are factors too).

The last 3/3 is also endurance related: is the ref going to actually deduct points for excessive clinching, leaning, pushing, etc? If yes, then the fight is his assuming Louis cleared the first 2. Once he gets inside, if he can find a way to deal with the big man's style, and the big man isn't allowed to just grab him and drain his energy leaning on him, Louis could unleash hell with his 3, 4, 5+ combinations blending power, speed, and arguably the best technique the division has ever seen. I don't see any modern SHW being able to deal with Louis combinations at close or mid range if he can deal with all 3 of these factors...but those are big ifs. Louis doesn't have a prayer if the ref overlooks the typical big man strategies, it would be a repeat of Lewis vs Tua or Wladmir vs Povetkin.

Louis wasn't known for a fast step in dash or head movement like Tyson/Dempsey, nor did he have the tight defense of a Chris Byrd/James Toney, or the legs of an Ali/Holmes/Usyk. With his somewhat plodding style, the first obstacle of the SHW jab is going to be a big hurdle with no guarantees. The good news is, both Lewis and Wladmir had trouble with men who had similar dimensions to Louis such as Rahman, Mercer, Brewster, etc, so it's fun to imagine and anything is possible.

 

Good breakdown pretty much agree. Quite a hurdle for Louis to overcome but if anyone can do it, its Louis. I think end of the day it'll come down to the Jab if he can overcome the Jab then he can win if he can't its gonna be a long night for him.