Rocky Marciano Versus Oleksandr Usyk

Get into a gym then talk

 

The fight should be made at cruiserweight

 

Would it be fair to perhaps label the 70s HWs as being the “intermediary size” (about 6’3” and around 220 lbs) between Rocky’s era and the current SHWs?

Usyk does fit into that size category, bearing a frame and size somewhat akin to the 70s HWs.

Olek is certainly capable of beating much bigger men but also still perhaps that much more vulnerable to men equal in size or that lil bit smaller than himself.

Say you were only aware of Louis’ definitive victories over the likes of relative giants Carnera, Simon and Buddy Baer before contemplating the chances of a much smaller Billy Conn?

Some of the “logic” here suggests that you might say “Well, if you Louis could do that to such supersized HWs, he’s probably gonna kill Conn”.

However, it doesn’t always work that way and of course it didn’t work that way against Conn - and, for obvious reasons, imo -

In a nutshell, it involves the see saw balance between P4P abilities and size (eg P4P abilities generally decrease as size increases and visa versa).

Also, along with their generally greater P4P skills, smaller sized opposition naturally present as lesser sized targets.

That’s why it’s ironic that some point to Louis’ issues with Conn as proof that he would see that much more trouble against a Super Sized HW when Louis materially proved during his own actual career, that it doesn’t necessarily correlate.

Louis’ career is in fact a great illustration of both sides of the coin. The big, the small and the ugly all have their own pros and cons.

You move Usyk back through his career, from HW to CW, and his fights appear that much harder and more competitive against more comparably sized opposition than when he began running circles around today’s behemoths, - some of whom “might” move well “for their size” but whose absolute P4P skills leave a lot to be desired - and their gas tanks are also somewhat very limited - which has also allowed Usyk to shine that much more and push ahead during the latter stages of a fight.

Therefore, I don’t necessarily see Usyk’s successes against the behemoths of today as recommendations for his hypothesised successes against the smaller (as compared to todays SHWs) ATGs of yesteryear.

Rather, I could see Usyk travelling a much tougher road against several, certain smaller HWs.

 

Well, for some, “flaky” might be a preferred euphemism for Fury actually being leery to engage Usyk - which is exactly how Usyk framed it.

 

I wouldn't because fighters who were that size were considered big for the era (Ali and Foreman) most fighters in that era were smaller I think it was later on when that became the norm at least afaik

True but if he fought in that era he would be considered a big heavyweight as opposed to now where he is considered a small heavyweight

That might be true if we didn't also see him fight against men his size and smaller during his cruiserweight run and he beat everyone pretty decisively only having one close fight

Generally when looking for patterns or rules in something we look at averages rather then the exceptions. For every Conn we have someone like Bob Foster who lost to way worse fighters like Terrell and Jones despite being a much better boxer then the two simply because he was fighting men way bigger then him and couldn't deal with the size difference. There's a reason Usyk was an underdog in both the Joshua and Fury fights because most people thought he wouldn't be able to deal with the size difference but that's part of his greatness that he was able to and beat these bigger men.

Sure but regardless if all things are equal a fighter who is bigger will always have an advantage over one who is smaller and its up to the smaller fighter to make up that difference with his skill but inherently the bigger fighter has an advantage

I wouldn't say so his hardest fights where Briedis, Joshua 2 and the first Fury fight his other Cruiserweight fights weren't that hard realtively speaking and so far every heavyweight fight has had its difficulties. One thing you have to take into account the margin of error is much lower at heavyweight then at cruiserweight. Against bigger opponents, Usyk has to exert more effort and focus to overcome the inherent physical advantages of size and reach, leaving less margin for error. In contrast, against similar or smaller-sized opponents, he can rely more on his natural skill set without needing to compensate as much for physical disparities

You can have a case if he only fought SHWS but he has fought both and done well against both and I would say his fights against SHWS are much harder then his fights against Cruiserweights for reason I have said before.

 

My point is that if he fought in that manner, he probably would. He is a conservative boxer who doesn't leave a lot out there, though.

 

There were quite a few 70s HWs who were rubber stamped as being in the realm of 6’3” and 220 lbs, and there were others that were bigger again, like Joe Bugner, Roy Williams, Chuck Wepner etc.

So, no, Usyk wouldn’t necessarily be considered a big HW during the 1970s and the 37, near 38 yo Usyk you see now has been considerately built up with some natural size gained due to later age also.

Foreman, at just 27/28, toward the latter stages of his first career, was up to a very natural weight of around 230 lbs.

We did see Usyk engage opponents of his own size and smaller, no disputing that - it was already highlighted - but I do think we saw more competitive fights for him in general against the “smaller” opposition.

Was Usyk an underdog in the first Fury fight? I thought he was favourite - at any rate, the odds set weren’t overwhelmingly in favour of either man IIRC.

Bob Foster did prevail over several
opponents of much greater size and Jones himself didn’t do too shabbily in the same regard - he only outweighed Foster by 8 lbs.

In natural terms, Bob was barely beyond LH size and while his skills allowed him to transcend the LH division to some degree, his resilience was sealed at the lighter weight -

If all things are equal then we would have good big man vs good little man. Good = the same skill set.

Given same, per the exact specifications of the hypotheses, greater size should make the difference.

However, as I pointed out, generally speaking - and I could also use the term “inherently”, greater size will = less skill which can offset absolute size disadvantage in varying degrees.

When considering the truly elite fighters in their respective divisions, a good number of matches which involve a smaller fighter moving up in weight see a good big man vs a very good naturally small man who may lose some edge due to the weight he has added to himself but whilst still retaining the better part of his superior skills overall.

Obviously I don’t necessarily agree that his HW run has been harder in black and white terms - there are several opposing pros and cons for both his CW and HW runs to be factored in.

And again, also, Usyk has lost a step or so through the years which, in itself, naturally makes the going that little bit harder for him - a stand alone fact that is divorced from the size/quality of the opponent in front of him.

 

This whole discussion is backwards. Rocky Marciano would not be able to beat Usyk because Usyk is too big? Isn’t it Usyk who does take on bigger guys and beats them? Usyk is the most recent prove that smaller guys can beat bigger guys. But now Marciano is too small to beat Usyk? That doesn’t make sense.

Also it has happened many times before. Patterson, Moorer, RJJ, Mike Tyson, Spinks,……

Holyfield moved up from CW when the weight limit was 190 lbs. 190 lbs being roughly Marciano’s size.

 

In my view, Rocky Marciano is seriously underestimated by many, and that is a shame. The Rock deserves better. It is true that Rocky Marciano never fought anybody like Oleksandr Usyk. And the reverse is also true.

 

I’ve been.

I’ve just got home.

It was an experience.


I sparred an 8’5” HW

520 pounds.

A switch hitter.

We only did a few rounds.

I think around 70-75 in total.

It was a great session.

He couldn’t get near me.


The only downside, was that I did a few rounds with a 5’3” BW.

And he knocked me clean out in the 2nd.


As I was regaining consciousness in the ambulance, the lovely paramedic, who was the most beautiful woman that I’ve ever seen, bent down and gently whispered:

“Styles make fights”

 

Great post.

It all comes down to that horrible word what the Master (he really should change his name) hates:

Styles.


It’s just that simple.

It’s always been that way.

And it always will be that way.


Conn was harder than Primo.

Just like how Breidis was harder than AJ and Fury.


It’s the beauty of the sport.

 

Again people are missing the point there is 0 comparison to Usyk and Marciano I don't know why people keep using this argument.

Usyk is 6'3 78 inch reach and a master Southpaw boxer with some of the best footwork of all time in Heavyweight division.

Marciano is a 5'10 67 inch reach slugger how are those dimensions or his style going to be beneficial to him vs much bigger stronger Heavyweights ?

It's not just the dimensions or size it's his style it's frankly not suited to fighting much bigger strong elite Heavyweights.

Marciano would not be a Heavyweight in the modern era I don't know why this is so hard for people to comprehend. And yet in another sentence you'll pick him vs elite Super Heavyweights when he's a slugger with T-Rex arms baffling logic.

 

No Usyk wouldn't be overly big for 70s Heavyweight era but Marciano certainly would be considered small for that era and he wouldn't even be considered a Heavyweight in the modern era.

 

This is not about Marciano vs SHW. This is about Marciano vs Usyk right?

It doesn’t specify anything else. What if it’s Marciano vs Usyk at 200 lbs 15 rounds small gloves and they did already fight twice against other opponents that year?

 

Usyk has some of the best stamina of all time for a man of his size he threw close to 1000 punches vs Hunter and was a non stop punching machine in the 12th round of that fight.

I'd favour Usyk at any weight considerably bigger dimensions has the stamina to match Marciano and is far quicker with superior movement and boxing skills.