Rocky Marciano vs Cleveland Williams

He was a promising puncher that probably wouldn't have gone much farther. His return post-gunshot was imo his greatest feat. Williams was lucky to be alive, the prospect of returning to the ring seemed like a deluded fantasy. He competed with mixed success but still success no less, credit where it is due.

 

You are not crazy, Rocky never faced a great slugger OR large fighter.
And I agree that Marciano would not rule the division in more recent times.

Yet your case would be stronger without massaging the facts-or in the case of their weight differences, not cheking them.
The prime weight of one was late 180's, Williams not much over 210. 25 lbs.
And per square inch Rocky was at least as heavy & muscular, owing to more lower body mass-including before his leg atrophied due to being shot.
You used a low (but possible) height for Rocky, if so accept Williams height as overstated.
And took around his lowest weight-Williams scaled 175 for his first pro fight, it would also distort reality to use weights from a bunch of his early career bouts.

Being accurate would help your case, since it seems far more unbiased.
Although yes, Lyle & Bruno would also have a shot, since we really do not see Marciano having defeated men of that size & caliber.

 

Thanks for the compliments but no I'm impartial.

Williams was 215.5 against Liston in their 2nd bout, 215 against Terrell, 213.25 against Johnson, etc. Right before he was shot he was hovering right around that 213-214 pound range. Marciano was 184.5 for Walcott, 187.5 for Charles, 189 for Cockell, etc. So I could easily say, their was fights with a 30 pound gap between them. At the very worst I was a couple pounds off from the 30 pound end.

People close to Marciano (including his nephew iirc) say he was 5'9" (which isn't a stretch at all, given his billed height was 5'10") and Williams is listed at 6'2" on boxrec but was listed on promotional posters at 6'3" for some fights. He certainly seemed more than an inch taller against the 6'1" billed Liston.

Williams' billed height has caused debates in the past where many feel his height has been undersold.

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This isn't true at all. He was ranked number 2, had beaten Daniels in a WBA tournament, and was set for a WBA title bout against Ernie Terrell in what was a very winnable fight for him. He'd knocked out Terrell in their first bout, and despite going into the 2nd bout with injuries to his hand that were so bad the fight was on the verge of a cancellation, he took Terrell to a very close SD in Philly (where Terrell was fighting out of), that many including myself scored for Williams.

Terrell was also holding on for dear life at that point, and gassed out. He certainly wouldn't have made it another 3 rounds (which he would've had to in a championship bout).

 

OK you omitted the Williams weights that were a little lighter, but that is very close.
You are right on target for Marciano, who was just over 188 for Moore, & on film said 187/188 was his best weight.
So really it is almost precisely or barely over 25 lbs. in their primes-not too far from 30, but way off from 40.

Again Marciano MAY have been 5.9". If so he is heavier per square inch (& that is boiled down) than Williams.
Maybe Cleveland was 6.3"-but it is unusual when a man is not the shorter height of 2 listed.
But what you posted from someone is a bit absurd: "a good 4-7" taller than Satterfield"?!

Also besides that Liston was 6' 1/2", even if "billed" taller, it is an overstatement to say Williams "towered" over him.
Also do you see him noticeably shorter against Ali? I don't-it is just that Ali is taller than Liston!

 

forgive me swag-sama, I always appreciate your corrections. Not much film of the second Terrell fight exists from my quick research, if I were to watch some fights of Williams as a contender what would you recommend? I've seen his bouts with Liston, Ali, and thats about it,

 

No...Marciano was not Liston! Sonny was a quitter...Marciano had a "kill or be killed" attitude....No quit in Marciano!!!

 

Reporter: "You're boy Rocky looks kinda crude!"
Trainer Charlie Goldman:" The Atom Bomb was pretty crude too...but it got the job done!"

 

5'11'....189 pounds. He worked himself down to that weight...he felt very comfortable there...

 

That's why I stated it was off the top of my head.

Maybe so, but he was clearly not 4 inches shorter thsn the 6'6" Terrell.

Also 5.9 isn't 5'9" butt 5'10" 8/10. But I'm not gonna call you impartial over a misunderstanding.

I agree that was absurd but the sole purpose of providing that thread was to cast doubt on Williams' alleged height.

I don't know Liston's actual height for certain. All I know is, he was likely malnourished as a child, likely preventing him from reaching his full height. Regardless

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Their is clearly more than an inch (or inch and a half) between them.

Ali iirc actually grew between their first and second fight!

Regarding Williams against Ali, I wouldn't be surprised if he suffered some sort of height loss after his shooting. I'd honestly be somewhat surprised if he didn't after a gruesome shooting which damaged his hips, and legs severely causing his left leg to atrophy and causing permanent partial paralysis.

 

As repeated to you infinite times, if Liston was such a quitter, why continue when Williams broke his nose and nearly knocked Liston out by his own admission?

Why continue when Nino Valdez shut his eye? Or when Marshall broke his jaw?

The only quitter I see here is you. Whenever someone responds to you or calls out your falsehoods (such as Shavers never having a KO past the 7th round, a blatant lie which you continue to spout), you run away like a coward.

 

There are endless threads debating height & hard to know without compensating for footwear, posture, etc.
I guess Williams may well have been 6'3".
I am not confident that the comparisons you make between him & Terrell + Liston are correc-he certainly could be 1.5" taller than the later-or 2.5".
FOlks who are bulkier look shorter than they are compared to leaner.

You are joking about Ali growing? At that age-specially with no evidence he reached puberty late-it's highly unlikely.

I see what you are saying-I mistakenly wrote 5.9 when I meant 5'9", but the intent was the same...Although the nearly 5'11" that accidentally implied is really close to his listed height, like Frazier & Tyson (& many taller fighters), seems overstated.

Williams may well have suffered some shooting loss of height-but I cannot tell that injury makes it likely.
Atrophy yes, & he regained all but some muscle in one leg.

 

Who?

 

Williams didn't beat nobody of note. Rocky gets on the inside and smokes him

 

Oh thats an easy one, Williams Is a good fighter but overated in my opinion. Who did he actually beat? Marciano takes his lumps and maybe rises from the canvas but beats Williams into submission within 6.