It has no bearing whether they fought like Marciano or not. You're entirely missing the point. I'm asking what footage are you basing the idea that Cleveland Williams has a likely chance to beat Marciano on. The footage available of him is almost if not entirely of him losing and very decisively most of the time. What's your point? That both were past their best? I never contested this. Cool. Great for Williams. That fight took place 7 years after Williams was shot. He was clearly well enough to fight for the heavyweight title. How long do you plan on milking that excuse? Shot or not Williams was over the hill regardless as was Chuvalo although Chuvalo closer to his prime. Williams did just as good after he came off of his lay off as he had been doing before. He lost to Ali and always would have lost to Ali by knockout. It's time for you to perhaps begin to explore the idea that Williams was just too old anymore to be a top competitive heavyweight. He was shot at like 31. That was considered past prime in those days anyway and didn't start his losing phase against lower tier fighters until 1968 when he was something like 35 years old. You literally told me to go watch it as if you had already done so and referenced it as a clear exhibition of Williams outboxing someone which he definitely didn't do there. WIlliams was not 30-40 lbs heavier than Marciano. That is an outright distortion of the facts. He commonly weighed 200 lbs. His range is definitely 15-25 lbs heavier than Marciano which is much closer. Not to mention Williams has the legs of marathon runner. Williams wasn't faster either. He wasn't a particularly fast fighter just like Sonny Liston wasn't fast. Marciano and Williams have very similar speed. How do you think Williams is stronger? I'd bet money Marciano could squat and deadlift more. On the inside Marciano would definitely bull into him just like he did to everyone else. Your argument against Marciano is based upon losses that you think would have happened as opposed to what actually happened in history. It's FACT that Williams was knocked out 3 times in 8 rounds against a b level fighter and Sonny Liston. It's a FACT he was never considered a skillful fighter. It's a FACT that has literally no significant wins outside of Ernie Terrell (who he turned around and lost to a year later) not only prior to being shot but after! His record has more padding than a 16 oz glove. There's absolutely no evidence that he would have beaten Marciano. You could line Williams against Moore, old Louis, Charles, and JJ Walcott and he would lose to them all. You'd probably still say he'd beat Marciano. -He was knocked out by Satterfield, knocked out 2x by Sonny Liston, and knocked down twice by Sylvester Jones. A 7-3 fighter to Williams' 28-0 at the time. All of this before being shot. Take away his Liston fights and he's just a bigger guy with an extremely weak resume that was knocked out by Bob Satterfield and knocked down by Sylvester Jones. Seriously. Just look at his resume without Sonny Liston on there and it shrinks. His resume is so bad that being knocked out twice by Liston in 5 rounds total boosts his legacy.
Most of this is laughable at best, and more realistically deliberate lying. For example Williams was not 200 pounds. Their are only 7 times, SEVEN in his entire career he was 200 pounds or below. And all those occasions were when he was a kid, 19 years old. Even more laughable is your claim that Marciano was as fast as Marciano. Marciano despite being a smaller fighter, was slow even for his size. While Williams was known as a deceptively quick fighter especially for his size. Their's a reason he was known as "The Big Cat" and I don't think it's because he purred You claim that he was just as fast as Liston, which simply isn't true. One can easily watch both fights, and see that this is absolute bollocks! Furthermore, Machen who went the distance with both, made it clear who was faster "In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." As for the rest of your laughable claims, I can't be bothered to disprove them as I am watching the Georgia Senate Runoffs.
Anything less than 205 lbs is pretty much considered a 200 lbr. Enough with the bull****. He literally weighed 202 lbs at the age of 24 in 1957. He weighed 210 or less all the way into 1963! You are incredibly dishonest with your evaluation of fighters and distort the facts to whatever fits your argument. If you were arguing for another fighter beating Williams you would be singing a different tune about his weight. I can't make you see anything when you already have your mind made up. Williams is clearly not a fast fighter on film. If you don't want to accept that then that's your problem. He had a hard punch but sloppy technique and horrid defense. And guess what? It showed! Resulted in multiple knockout losses and knockdowns to not just top fighters but everyone in between. It ends in this. There isn't a single win on Williams resume that signals that he would beat Marciano. His resume of wins stinks something terrible. Take off his post gunshot career and the Liston losses and it's still horrible. I'm outright challenging you to produce wins on his resume that say he would beat Marciano because of it. Give me a specific instance that doesn't result in him getting knocked out that shows he would beat Marciano. Just one. I'm waiting. I'm going to just assume you're going to completely ignore that last paragraph like you did before. You have no more argument.
The reason I didn't address your argument in entirety is because 1. I clearly told you I was watching the Georgia Senate Runoffs yesterday when I informed you I was not going to respond to your post in full. 2. You clearly show a bias making laughable claims that Marciano was just as strong and fast as Williams. One just needs to look at this film, This content is protected , to know that is bollocks. You also said he was 200 pounds commonly, when shown he only weighed in at 200 pounds or less, all when he was 19 or younger, you quietly switched the goal post to 210 instead of conceding you were wrong. You're not an honest nor even handed poster when it comes to Marciano nor Liston and it clearly shows based on not just this thread, but others as well. Their is no point engaging with you. I've wasted enough time on you already. It's best for you to put me on ignore.
Again, for the 20th time: When he stepped up, his avr. rounds balooned to over 9 rounds! And that excludes any young quick 207 fellows, but includes seniors and flabby SMWs!
Well debunked, this forum needs people like you , posters who are not lemming like, who step back and introduce good sound sense into the topic, well done keep it up.
This is false. Completely. If you mean title fights? Maybe. But I believe his average of ten round fights KOs is something like 4.5 rounds. Will look it up when I get home. When you look at ANY fighters title fights of course the average will rise. Complete Garbage fighters don’t normally get title shots.
Don´t you think we both know how that ends ? Rockys title fights [rounds]: 13+1+11+15+8+9+9 = 66 Avr: 66/7 = 9.4 rounds. If its 12 round fights, this becomes 8.9 rounds and the 0 is probably gone Lewis wins after regaining the title: 5+1+5+12+12+12+2+2+12+4+8+6/12 = 6.75 Tyson under Rooney: 2+12+6+12+7+4+2+1/8 = 5.75 Foreman didn´t have enough prime title bouts for stats. What about prime Ali [exlcuding Liston 2 here, but you still have the shady Walcott 2 KO ]: 6+12+15+6+3+12+3+15/8 = 9.0 With Sonny 2 its 8.1. Joe Fraziers prime title fights? 11+2+15+1+7+4+2+15+4+4/10 = 6.5 Don´t bother with Louis. I think the only fighters topping 9 are 2nd reign Ali, Holmes and maybe Wlad. So the only fighters who fought longer were boxing types. See you next time
You duck my main point yet again. I'll say it again: "It ends in this. There isn't a single win on Williams resume that signals that he would beat Marciano. His resume of wins stinks something terrible. Take off his post gunshot career and the Liston losses and it's still horrible. I'm outright challenging you to produce wins on his resume that say he would beat Marciano because of it. Give me a specific instance that doesn't result in him getting knocked out that shows he would beat Marciano. Just one. I'm waiting." Do you have any counterargument whatsoever? Again, guys that weigh 202.5 lbs are considered 200 lbrs in common conversation. I'm not going to specify down to the oz of what everyone weighed. I consider guys who's weight varied from 190-205ish lbs to be 200 lbrs. You understand exactly what I'm saying you just want to be a jack ass and steer the conversation elsewhere because you can't produce a single win on Williams' resume that shows he would beat Marciano. Williams weighed 205 or less approximately 29 times throughout the 50s. Explain to me how much of a difference 5 lbs makes between 200 and 205.
Williams isn't much of a step up. Marciano's entire title defenses save for MAYBE Cockell were much better than Cleveland Williams. All would have beaten him.
