Rocky Marciano vs Cleveland Williams

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dance84, Jan 1, 2021.

Who wins

  1. Marciano Decision

    1.3%
  2. Marciano Knockout

    81.3%
  3. Williams Decision

    3.8%
  4. Williams Knockout

    13.8%
  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The problem of course with this is we all know Foreman turned out to be a great fighter.

    Surely You can excuse people not rolling the dice on Foreman against Frazier in their title fight because at that time Frazier was the guy who beat Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Bonnavena and Chuvalo in the same way you must forgive people for not rolling the dice on Williams over Marciano because Marciano is the guy who did what he did.

    The thing is Williams had a very long career. He won an awful lot of fights. Was an entertaining guy with heavy hands. But at the highest level Williams NEVER proved to be anything more than Machen or Terrell level. That’s an echelon below being the best fighter in the world whatever way you look at it. For a fighter to establish championship level status he needs to be dominating at that kind of level.

    you can’t say that about George Foreman. An Olympian who justifiably established himself as one of the best champions of all time with a resume of dominating performances over real champions and top echelon fighters.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  2. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    Sounds like a good thread, not just for Williams. A potential debate at what H2H-level Rockys aging opponents were at that time. For me, overrated.
    Keep in mind that a scenario like that features an optional Williams (like the 29 years old 53-4 version who stopped Terell), but Walcott, Charles, Moore are fixed here at the time Rocky fought them. And that are past it aging fighters.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  3. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not quite sure what exactly you wrote it’s a little sloppy. But if you were to look at Tyson’s Foreman Frazier’s Listons etc title fights and fights against ranked challengers of course the time it takes to KO is gonna take longer. Common sense. Those are also the best Ko artists in history
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This has been done to death.

    All those guys you say were “past it ageing fighters” happened to be beating the best available guys in their most recent fight.

    Walcott had just beat Charles, Moore had just beat Valdes, lastarza had just beat Layne. Charles had just knocked out Satterfeild. You can argue they were better at another point in their career but they are still beating championship caliber opponents in their previous fight. Even old man Joe Louis could still beat Jimmy Bivins.

    Williams never beat anyone as good as Bivins!

    The Bivins Joe Louis beat probably still holds his own with any challenger you care to mention.
     
  5. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I am not ducking your "main point". I've actually responded to this argument earlier in this thread. Only reason I refuse to engage with you is you are not even handed (even worse than Choklab) and are very shortsighted. As I've said, it's best to put me on ignore.
     
  6. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    They might of been past it aging fighters but they were still great at that time. Aging or not, the versions that Marciano fought were more than capable of beating Williams. I'd favor Moore of 1955 to stop Williams.

    Marciano's title defenses aren't the strongest by any means but they say a ton for what he could do against fighters of fantastic skill and quickness. Charles and Moore are top p4p fighters ever. That's huge.
     
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  7. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    You want to talk about double standards and not even handed? I have you quoted as describing Marciano as 5'9" and 180 lbs. Marciano has never been listed as 5'9" from what I've seen and he weighed 180 lbs even or less only 4 times in his career! You literally went out of your way to chastise me for doing the same thing with Williams except Williams weighed 200 or less more times in his career.

    The wins you claimed as indicators of Williams beating Marciano are Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff. Are you ****ing kidding me? For one what do they share with Marciano at all? Miteff was stopped 3 times prior to fighting Williams and Billy Daniels ended his career with as many losses as wins and almost as many knockout losses as knockout victories!

    And I'm the biased one. You're delusional. There's no conversing with you on a logical level because you equate 23-22 fighters with undefeated heavyweight champs.
     
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  8. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Williams never got that chance because
    1. Many top fighters were not keen to fight him.
    2. HE WAS SHOT AND NEARLY KILLED BY A PATROL-MAN AFTER HE'D EARNED A TITLE SHOT.

    I never said I blame anyone who picks Marciano over Williams. I'm just saying you can't pick Marciano on the lone basic "Who did Williams beat besides Terrell lolz"
    Williams was never the best fighter in the World at any point and he was never going to be when he was sharing an era with Liston. But he was an elite contender. He drew with the highest rated fighter of the era not named Liston in a fight most thought he won.
    Marciano wasn't dominating :lol: He was going life and death with journeyman, and aging former greats. Even an over the hill Charles nearly stopped Marciano and was handled much easier by Nino Valdez.
    He established himself AFTER beating Frazier. Their was nobody he beat on his resume going into the fight indicating that he would beat Frazier let alone in the matter that he did.
     
  9. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He was billed at 5'10 to 5'11" but most who knew him said he was closer to 5'9", and I believe film supports this.
    Granted. I should've said 180s which he was for most of his career to Williams 210s. Even so that's still a lot better than you claiming he commonly weighed in at 200 pounds when he was primarily 212 or above.

    No, that's not true. I listed them when Janitor asked me who were the best fighters Williams ever fought while also mentioning that the contenders of that era ducked him (which Janitor himself also admits). I never said I based my pick solely on his wins against Miteff and Daniels.
    Billy Daniels was a very formidable, rated, fighter when Williams fought him, he only declined AFTER the Williams bouts. As a matter of fact Williams was responsible for the demise of Daniels "punishing Billy Daniels so much in a 10-round decision that Daniels has never been the same fighter since"
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    And you think you're impartial after saying all this laughable non-sense?
     
  10. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    You've never met a single person that knew Marciano. Every account I've seen has him at 5'10 and above. You can't produce anything that says contrary.

    Williams didn't weigh 212 or above until 1960 since you want to be technical about it. He turned pro in 1951. That is not primarily a 212 or above fighter.


    Actually it is. You're completely confused again. I asked what WINS did Williams achieve that you base your pick on. Not losses or near victories. I asked about solid wins. You pointed me in the vague direction of that post and the only wins out of every fight you listed were with those two fighters. That's your fault. Not mine.



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    Daniels is rated once ahead of only 50 year old Archie Moore and Henry Cooper. A rating that doesn't mean a whole lot considering it was one of boxing's weakest eras. You must think the world of Henry Cooper for knocking out Miteff.





    Nothing wrong with any of those quotes. Especially when put into context. Glad you've been digging through my post history though. I can't say I give a **** to do the same for you.
     
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  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    It is factually correct that there was nobody Foreman beat which might indicate he would beat Frazier. When Williams fought Satterfeild he had an impressive knockout run of 30 or so fights as Foreman had. Difference was Foreman beat Frazier and Satterfeild totally demolished Williams. This also is totally factual.

    it is pretty well established that Marciano cleaned out the division. He literally ran out of big fights.

    The fight with machen was indecisive. Champions Liston, patterson and Johansson decisively beat Machen. Eddie Machen was certainly a long serving rated contender. But how many other title challengers are you going to champion for drawing with just one long serving contender? Scott Frank drew with Renaldo Snipes. Is he going to be boosted against great fighters as well?
     
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    When you consider Harold Johnson and Cleveland Williams record against Eddie Machen that looks like a sound pick.
     
  13. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    Probably not, seeing that Henry Cooper didn't knock out Miteff. In fact he barely escaped being knocked out himself.
     
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  14. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    And you would know this how? As it just so happens, I've met Louis Marciano JR, Rocky's nephew (son of Lou aka "Sonny" Rocky's brother). His father is actually still alive and 99 years old
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    Men like Lou Duva who I expect to know a bit more than the likes of yourself.



    Granted.



    Since for some unknowable reason you're unable to go back to the post I was referring to. I made an analogy to Foreman. What person did Foreman ever beat that indicated he would even have a chance with Frazier?

    Many top contenders purposely steered clear of Williams, and of the few top contenders he did fight, only two beat him decisively; Ali and Liston.




    You clearly don't understand how ratings work. This is a YEAR END rating which is done in retrospect after the year is over.

    Um.... you do realize Cooper didn't knock out Miteff. On the contrary Cooper was cut badly, floored for a 9 count, nearly knocked out himself (some argue he in fact did not make the count and should've been counted out) and barely survived en route to a UD.







    Lol if you think people's sole reasoning for picking Liston over Marciano is on the basis of his skin color.
    Hurt my feelings there pal! :(
     
  15. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    Honest mistake on my end. I think I had several tabs open of different fighters resumes to compare results. Miteff was knocked out quite a few times by different people. Must have slipped my mind.