Rocky Marciano vs Cleveland Williams

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dance84, Jan 1, 2021.



Who wins

  1. Marciano Decision

    1.2%
  2. Marciano Knockout

    81.5%
  3. Williams Decision

    3.7%
  4. Williams Knockout

    13.6%
  1. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    How old was he when Marciano died and provide proof if you give an age.

    Looked up the claim that Lou Duva said Marciano was 5'9 and really any claims that Marciano was 5'9. Not only did nothing come up confirming that claim but this very thread did. Seems Marciano is so rarely referred to as 5'9 that you saying it is generated as one of the top results on google.


    I'm definitely not ever going to go through your post history to find an obscure claim you made.

    Before I actually answer your question, I want to note that you're equating Williams' chances with Marciano as Foreman's perceived chances against Frazier prior to their fight. You do realize Foreman was a nearly 4 to 1 underdog? You see, bookies and sports betting agencies set their odds on the most likely outcome. That's how they make money. If you're equating Williams to Foreman in terms of chance then I agree, Williams is the obvious underdog and it is more likely that Marciano would win.


    Eddie Machen took him to a draw. Cool, I'd say he deserved contender status. He lost a close decision to Ernie Terrell. Not exactly a world beater here. Just think. You're basing this guy beating Marciano because he went 1-3-1 against contenders and future world title holders. Oh and can't forget he beat Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff. Those two guys sure were somethin'!


    Not good enough to stay in the ratings for a year? It's not impressive being in the ratings briefly. It's impressive being in the ratings consistently. Nobody cares about the guy floating in and out of 10th place 4 months out of the year.

    An honest mistake. In my comparison of resumes and results against common opposition I confused myself when referring to Henry Cooper. Miteff had been knocked out so many times its hard to keep track of who did and didn't stop him.

    Never thought I'd had to argue why wins over Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff mean **** all in reference to Marciano.
     
  2. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    Not really. He had been stopped on cuts against Billy Hunter, and quit against Willi Besmanoff with torn ligaments in his right knee. His only actual ko loss had been to Mike DeJohn back in 1957 when he was just 21.
     
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Didn’t Chuvalo all but knock Miteff out though? I am sure I have read One of their fights Miteff was out during the final bell. Also, Ali knocked Mitteff out with an anchor punch. So the Williams win was not so unique.

    saying all that, I liked Miteff. Big with a rough style. Talented too. His first 12 fights against men with winning records and he beat all of them. He could have been another Dempsey at one point but was either thrown to the lions or took the wrong fights for the money.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  4. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    Chuvalo had Miteff down once in their first meeting back in 1958 but Miteff got up and lasted out the round. In their rematch, immediately before Miteff met Williams, there were no knockdowns. None of this supports the idea that Miteff was constantly being knocked out.
     
  5. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    That's extremely overanalyzing it. If you only consider not making the 10 count a knockout loss then most fighters will see a significant drop in their KO ratio. He was knocked out against Jerry Quarry, floored and stopped by Ali, floored multiple times against Williams and stopped. Having paper thin skin and being stopped because of cuts is a knockout as well. It's literally in the name "Technical Knock Out".

    I'm not going to play the semantics game with you. That seems to be the only way you and swag are able to even argue in Williams favor in this thread. You don't have **** in the way of evidence that Williams would win because he has almost nothing in terms of good wins. Ernie Terrell is the only fighter he managed to beat that was regarded as a legitimate title contender and he couldn't even beat him decisively a second time. Lost a split decision.
     
  6. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    I notice you've changed your story. Originally you were claiming that "Miteff had been knocked out so many times" - suggesting that he had multiple ko losses on his record when he stepped in against Williams. Now you've realised that's not true and you're trying to bring in future losses, including the fact that he was knocked out by Jerry Quarry during his ill-advised comeback 6 years later.

    My favourite part is that you're actually trying to include his loss to Cleveland Williams as a reason why Williams beating him was no big deal.
     
  7. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    You're rather confused. You replied to my comment that Henry Cooper knocked Miteff out which I quickly clarified as an honest mistake and jokingly added that Miteff had been knocked out so many times it was hard to keep track. You further replied to that saying he was only knocked out truly by Mike DeJohn which was totally incorrect and a distortion of the facts. I'm referring to Miteff's entire career. You seem to be the only one in this entire thread that is putting a microscopic lens on a specific period of Miteff's career. You're doing it to boost Cleveland Williams' win to make it something isn't, evidence that Williams would beat Marciano.

    Again, if you have any argument at all as to what wins on Williams resume show he would beat Marciano now is the time to put it out there. Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff are not evidence that Cleveland Williams would have similar results against Marciano. A fighter who annihilated heavyweights that Williams doesn't hold a candle to in any respect outside of punching power. The difference in skill between Marciano's opponents and Cleveland Williams is astounding. To suggest Williams comes close is a slap in the face of boxing.
     
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I never said Miteff was consistently being knocked out. He’d been iced in one round before. And Had previously been decked hard by Chuvalo who claimed in his book that he was cheated out of a kayo.
     
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  9. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Simple math indicates he would've been 49. As for proof, do you want a birth certificate?

    Their is a poster here, who knew Duva who frequently stated Marciano was but 5'9"



    I didn't have to go through your post history. That was one of the first posts you made, and the absurdness of it made it unforgettable to me.
    Not at all, I'm saying. Their's nothing in Foreman's resume pre-Frazier that indicates he would've destroyed him in the manner he did. Even if Williams resume isn't exactly top-tier it doesn't automatically constitute a loss.




    Marciano's record would look very similar against these guys. He likely beats both Machen and Terrell, but would lose to Ali, and Liston 2x.



    Doesn't matter how brief you're in the top ten for. At one point, he was named as one of the top ten best fighters in the world no matter how you try to twist it.
    An honest mistake. I won't hold it against you.

    He'd been stopped 3 times prior to this. Once with an injured knee. Once against Hunter, and another time in his 13th fight, a year into his career when he was fed to monster puncher Dejohn.

    As I've stated previously, multiple contenders steered clear of Williams which is why his resume lacks top fighters.
     
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  10. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Maybe you’re confusing Marciano w Frazier whom several people have said was actually 5”9. Never heard anyone state that.
    As far as what Marcianos record would look like against the same opposition I think he does much better but who knows.
     
  11. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    Louis Marciano Jr. Not his father.


    I'm not really interested in what some anonymous poster who may or may not have known Duva has to say about Rocky Marciano. I find it incredibly absurd that Lou Duva would go out of his way to tell all who could hear that Marciano was an inch shorter than what was commonly listed. When they did the tale of the tape they used an actual tape measure. They used it to measure everything including height.



    Nah you definitely went through my post history. Not that it matters much anymore, I'm more interested in what wins Williams has that show he would beat Marciano as confidently as you say it is.

    What you're saying doesn't make sense you understand that right? You're claiming there is similarity between pre Foreman-frazier and pre Williams-Marciano. The specific similarities being there was nothing to indicate that Foreman would beat Frazier and that there is nothing indicating that Williams would beat Marciano. However at the same time you're trying to say it would be favorable that Williams would beat Marciano. That suggests that there are indicators that Williams would beat Marciano.

    Either it was a false analogy or there is nothing indicating (in your words) that Williams would beat Marciano rendering him an underdog just like Foreman was against Frazier. Which I agree with.

    That's 6 fights that didn't happen that you're relying on for your argument. I think he beats Machen, Terrell, and Liston. However those fights didn't really happen so I can't use predicted victories over them as solid evidence. My thing is who did Williams actually beat in real life that indicates he would beat Marciano? My though process on my end is who did Marciano beat that indicates he would beat Williams? Imo the argument is much in Marciano's favor in that respect.


    It definitely does. You and me both know guys get ranked out of nowhere that don't deserve the ranking. We see it all the time with the rankings of the alphabet titles.

    Sweet

    His losses after that matter too. He went on to lose 3 out of 4 fights after that all by knockout. Then he retired. The 4 fights prior to Williams he lost 3 out of 4 as well but by decision. I think it's safe to just assume he was on a rapid decline or better yet, just wasn't that good to begin with.

    I get what you're saying but that doesn't justify why I have to argue against Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff being indicators that Williams would beat Marciano. Would you agree that they aren't indicators of Williams beating Marciano?
     
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  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Nobody steered clear of Williams. A lot of fighters fought him twice! Daniels fought him twice. Terrell fought him twice. Liston fought him twice. Sly Jones fought him twice.

    In fact Williams was the one to back out of a rematch with D!ck Richardson.
     
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  13. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I once read that he had a nightmare one night prior to his canceled bout against Welshman Dick Richardson, Williams said in the nightmare that he struck Richardson so hard that he killed him. Cleveland then backed out of that bout.
     
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  14. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Choklab will try to convince you Williams ducked Richardson despite dropping him, and beating him so bad he forced him to resort to headbutts. Williams rematched a peak Liston, who nobody wanted to fight as is, after being brutally knocked out but he's ducking a fighter he battered all over the ring until he disqualified himself to avoid a KO loss. It's as laughable as it is pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
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  15. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Perhaps you missed my "top fighters" part? Jones fought a 19 and 20 year old Williams who'd yet to develop into the terror he later became.

    A flat out lie. 8 of his 88 or so opponents fought him twice. That's not even close to "a lot of fighters". Of those 8, only 3 of whom, fought a prime Williams, and only one beat him decisively in either fight. A prime Liston.

    As Janitor who was actually criticizing Williams earlier put it
    Perhaps you missed my "top fighters" part? Jones fought a 19 and 20 year old Williams who'd yet to develop into the terror he later became.
    Yeah I forgot the guy who fought a peak sonny ****ing Liston 2X, was scared of a guy he'd been beating so badly, he had to disqualify himself to find a way out. As I said, laughable and pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
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