Rocky Marciano vs Cleveland Williams

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by KeedCubano, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I can’t wait till March, so we can do this thread again. Very exciting times
     
  2. young griffo

    young griffo Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I’ll see you then.

    I’ve got an angle that thinks computer fight Marciano is more proven than bf24 Williams. It’s open to debate though!
     
  3. young griffo

    young griffo Boxing Addict Full Member

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    And we’ve reached double figures. Take a bow all.
     
  4. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    Resumes by themselves don't win fights. Someone like Luis Ortiz might well beat Marciano despite the lack of top tier wins
     
  5. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    or someone like Luis Ortiz (or Cleveland or Tua or Lyle) might just not be good enough to reach to that level in reality.

    I agree resume does not win fights, but it is a pretty good indicator when guys who continually fell short in the real world get paired against guys who consistently reached that level in real life.

    it’s quite the conundrum
     
  6. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    The thing is Marciano is not even a heavyweight by the standards of later eras. Marciano as he actually existed is no bigger than today's light heavyweights
     
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  7. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I was going to respond to your comment and say "we did it boys" :lol:
     
  8. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You have to take into account eras/time periods. For example it's very unlikely, Marciano has similar success in later eras such as the 90s, and now. He is simply to limited by not only his size, but his lack of compensating attributes as well. Similarly, The Big Cat, while being ranked as high as #3, failed to establish himself as numero uno as Marciano did because he had the misfortune of sharing an era with a prime Liston and a peak Ali. Two top ten H2H monsters, the latter of whom, the GOAT who happened to be on his absolute best day. These are things Marciano didn't have to deal with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
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  9. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    Big Cat was in the Rock's era. He got wiped out by Satterfield, the same fighter that KOed by Marciano victims Ezzard Charles and Rex Layne. So Big Cat lost to a second tier from Marciano's era.

    If you knew these facts and still made this post, well...I can't agree with your reasoning.

    Williams now an uncrowned Champion? Christ. When will it end.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
  10. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. He lost to Satterfield when he was 20 YEARS OLD, and had been fighting for but a year and had taken the fight on a 2 day notice and had not even sparred at all. Just the fact, you have to resort to Satterfield to criticize Williams is pathetic.

    2. Marciano had his last fight two years after Williams debut. Just because their careers overlapped by two years, I'd hardly say that they shared the same era. Louis and Marciano's careers overlapped by more years, would you say their era was one and the same? How about Ali and Holmes who's careers overlapped by about 8 years? What an absurd comment.

    3. As I stated, Marciano did NOT have the misfortune of being at his prime the same time as Liston was, and being a shell of himself when Muhammad Ali was at his peak. He also wasn't SHOT, died 6 times on the operating table and suffered permanent partial paralysis when he was on the verge of a championship shot (against Terrell for the WBA title that he qualified for by beating their #1 contender Billy Daniels in his last fight before being shot).

    4. Please show me in my post where I said Williams was an uncrowned champion. Don't waste your time looking. You won't find anything.

    5. Next time you want to waste my time with stupid posts, DON'T.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
  11. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    good luck lol
     
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  12. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    Don't waste my time with timid bullcrap. Don't claim Williams was roadblocked by Liston and Ali....then backtrack with "I didn't literally call him an uncrowned" the moment you're called out for making such a hyperbolic suggestion. What's the point?

    Big Cat couldn't be the man in any era, not for long anyway. It didn't take a Liston or Ali to derail him. This board and near men...it's as if Quarry, Big Cat, and Tua only lost to all time greats, and just weren't wildly erratic niche fighters with a ceiling.

    Big Cat in his youth was pulverized by a trial horse version of Satterfield, then spent 5 years rebuilding before biting off more than he could chew against the smaller Liston. 5 YEARS! Rebuilding from a trial horse loss. And people wonder why he didn't get the Patterson fight. Had the 20 year old athlete disposed of an older man over 20 lbs lighter....or maybe took more risky match ups and beat some contenders he might have got to fight for a title before Liston.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
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  13. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Can’t really use Liston and Ali as an excuse he beat no other top tier contenders of the time let alone those monsters. One win against Terrell who later avenged it isn’t good enough. To be called great you need consistency and cleveland didn’t have it.
     
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  14. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Nothing about my post was hyperbolic. I said, he shared an era with a peak Liston and a peak Ali which is why he was never going to reach the top. None of that is false.

    Liston was the only person who clearly beat him even remotely close to his prime. The #2 rated Machen failed to do so. Yes he lost to Terrell, but he'd just fought a grueling 10 rounder 11 days prior against another contender, and still had banged up hands. Even so he still fought Terrell to a split decision, many thought he won. Including the AP.

    This is a flat out lie. Immediately following the Satterfield loss, he was drafted to the army for a year, and had to start from scratch when he came back. If you actually knew **** about Williams, instead of following the typical tirade against Williams you'd know this.
    The "older man" was one of the most dangerous fighters of the time, and would become ranked again the following year. Again as I've stated he was TWENTY years old, had been fighting for a year, and had no amateur experience to speak of. To try to hold this against him is absurd. Even Satterfield himself was impressed with Williams and rated him a future champion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  15. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I never made the argument that Williams was great. I just feel he's hell of a lot better than the majority of this forum makes him out to be, which is why I defend him so adamantly.