Rocky Marciano vs Cleveland Williams

Yeah I can see your point. I don't think he would've been "numero uno" (though I wouldn't rule it out) , though it's not as far fetched as people make it out to be. Think about it this way. If Ali, or Liston weren't around, who do you think would've been the top dog. My guess is most people would go for Patterson or Machen. Is Williams beating any of these men so far-fetched? Williams more than held his own against Machen in a draw, and could conceivably beat Patterson based on styles.

 

He may well have mate.

 

I edited my above post. Would be very interested, in hearing your thoughts, as I value your opinion highly.

 

Sorry mate but i have to heavily favor Rocky if that's the actual ask. The threads sorta gone everywhere. Resumes don't win fights we've been told (who knew?) but there's a lot more questions of The Cleaver than The Rock. The Rock would get in under and inside a lot of William's early explosiveness and if he got caught i don't think Cleveland would finish him. Williams could get a bit one dimensional and predictable and i don't think his footwork was the best. He was quite stiff and tense. It's surprising as he was handled by some good men.

 

I was referring to how would you feel about who would've ruled the pack had Ali and Liston not been around? My guess is the majority would go for Machen and Patterson?

 

Sorry mate

Patterson would be my default answer.

 

All good brother

I agree. Which brings me to my next question, would it really be farfetched to pick The Big Cat to beat Patterson based on styles? Though Patterson is the much better and more complete fighter.

But yes, I agree Patterson would be my default answer for establishing himself as #1, though I also feel Williams, Machen, and maybe even Terrell would all take turns as The Guy as well. Williams and Machen lacked consistency however, and that would be their undoing.

 

Williams would be a semi live underdog. If things went his way right from the start he might jag the upset. I wouldn't bet on it personally tho tbh. Liston put some serious leather and heat on Patterson. I thought Liston beat Williams extremely impressively in the first bash and his moments were fleeting in the second.

In my opinion Liston was a long way ahead of him as a fighter. He was so calm and composed in those fights and showed head movement and other defensive skills (parrying, anticipation, adept footwork etc) that never get their due.

 

Yes I agree. Williams defense had a lot to be desired to say the least. While Liston's was dare I say top-notch. He moved his head just enough to evade a blow while also conserving energy. He also kept his defense in the late rounds unlike many fighters.

I also agree with anticipation. Liston had an uncanny ability to anticipate what his opponent was going to do next.

 

I did not deliberately lie, I was simply wrong about the number of the years. My mistake on when Liston/Williams I happened.

Williams had over 30 pro fights under his belt when he fought Satterfield. He had wins over experienced trial horses Simmons and Omelio. He was not at his peak but he wasn't as green as you are trying to make out. Clarence Henry, a genuine contender, stopped Satterfield with only two amateur fights and 30ish pro fights.

My point, it would be easier to make your case had not Big Cat been put to sleep by a trial horse from Rock's era. A dangerous trial horse, but still a trial horse serious contenders like Layne, Henry, Johnson were able to get past with similar experience.

Regardless, you keep arguing Liston was the only man in his way, while insisting Big Cat would be "numero uno" like Marciano while insisting that isn't what you mean.

I see in your later posts you completely reshaped this claim into Big Cat might win the title however briefly if you take away the two most dominant fighters from his era. Sure, maybe but that opens the door for lots of fighters, and I don't see him as the most likely face coming out of that crowd. He certainly won't be numero uno.

 

I don't know where you got the idea Clarence Henry only had two amateur bouts. He was a national Golden Gloves champion.

 

You're fine. I was just in a snarky mood at the time, but I shouldn't have accused you of lying, nor resorted to insults. My apologies.

1. Henry did not have a mere two bouts as an amateur. He won the 1948 golden gloves tourney.

2. Henry had been fighting pro for 4 years at that point. Substantially longer than Williams.

2. Henry was already established, beating men like Holman, Baker, Bivins, Agramonte, etc when he faced Satterfield. Williams on the other hand faced nobody of note except a washed Omelio.

3. Dempsey had a similar amount of fights when he was decisively defeated by John Lester Johnson. Would you suggest he was in his prime?

4. On top of being only 20 years old, and having only fought for a limited amount of time, he also took the fight on a 2 day notice, which isn't nearly enough time to prepare for a dangerous slugger, let alone with Williams' lack of experience.

Besides the aforementioned, Henry. Layne was 23 years old, and had more fights than Williams, when he fought Satterfield. He also held a win over established fighters like Walcott.

Johnson on the other hand was 23 years old, had turned pro 6 years prior and was in his 40th fight. Not to mention he already held wins over men like Moore and Bivins.

JT already explained to me, how my post was worded wrong, and can make others interpret it different in the manner I intended. My point was, and still is Marciano didn't have to share an era with a Prime Liston and Ali like Williams did which would've almost certainly prevented him from reaching the top, and establishing himself as no. 1.

I don't know if he would be numero uno, but he would certainly be no worse than the top 4, along with Patterson, Machen, and Terrell. It's not inconceivable he would beat all of the aforementioned men. Hell he did beat Terrell, then lost a controversial SD, when not at 100%, and drew with a prime Machen (majority draw, actually. One judge had Williams a clear winner).