Rocky Marciano vs Evander Holyfield

-In their second careers starting in 44 and 46 respectuflly, Charles and Walcott really didn't seem to take alot of punishment, they were usually ones dishing it out and from footage their matches between each other were chess matches. Nothing like the Marciano fights at least. Of course they were each stopped once a piece in that time but in flash fashion and not from a bad beating that they really didn't seem to decline from.

I think we can point to signs of slipping consistency however in their busy schedules, Charles' apparent off nights against Layne and Valdez that were not filmed, and Walcott's supposed injury against Layne. Though they would follow these up with superb performances.

-Watching the fights, it doesn't look that way. Especially Walcott folding so easily after such a brave effort.

-As was every Champion.

 

Walcott had already gone through two tough fights with Joe Louis and Charles had basically fought every good fighter in existence. They both underwent a tremendous amount of wear and tear even if the beatings they took weren't collosal. Even fighters today experience the cummulative effects of long professional careers, and virtually none of them go through what men of that period did. I've already given my speculative answer for why Walcott was sparked so quickly in the rematch. And all of those men ( Walcott, Charles, Moore, Louis ) had to rely heavily on their experience to get them through those fights, but I think their punch resistance, timing, stamina and reflexes had very likely been diminished with time, age, and ring wear.

 

Apologies haha I thought You were talking the guys on those nights mentioned?? I was gunna say!? Foreman of the Moorer fight and Holmes of the Mercer fight were NO WHERE EVEN CLOSE to the fighters that Walcott, Moore and Charles were in the Marciano fights - sorry for the misunderstanding that would've been a silly thing to assume you meant?? atsch

 

He's not really built likes brick **** house though - I've met a load I fighters and if anything he was a little underwhelming size wise - the Holy night I went to the lad I went with who is admittedly 6'3" and about 16 trim stones was surprised how small he was? Although he had a head like a basketball tho - no wonder he was so lethal with his head?! I not a big guy myself but I didn't think he was all that big myself - Muhammad Ali seemed MUCH bigger when I met him and more recently Johnny Nelson seemed like a giant compared to Holy aswell?

 

-Walcott seemed to clown Louis through the majority of the available footage.

-Yet for whatever reason they didn't really drop off until after Marciano, not before, but after.

-What evidence do we have this? In the case of Louis, he clearly was not the same fighter of his youth. We can see his gradual detoriation in the ring or read it in the reports of his continous uncharacteristic performances. Louis was still rated #1 and winning, he was formiable, his left hand was still deadly, but we know he wasn't at the level. He was the same age as Walcott but you would not think that all.

But what of Walcott and Charles who against Maricano in the first fights, looked like the same men they did when they were tearing through the ranks. Or even the proceded fights, looked great. Both men reset their careers and returned to the sport after a long lay off, at 27 and 32 respectfully to start their most dominating runs. This is rather unusual circumstances.

Moore is a completely different animal, a freak of nature, going on the best and longest win streak of his career in his late 30s. He was always a strong fighter but whatever reason, that experience is what he needed to become an elite all time great. And even after Marciano and Patterson, he continued to thrive in a strong LHW division while picking choice HWs like Foreman and Holmes did in old age. His destruction of Lavorane I would rank with Holmes' Mercer win.

 

I've only seen footage from their first meeting and that was years ago.. But looking at photos of their faces in those fights, it certainly didn't look like clowning to me. And Walcott was KO'd in the rematch.

And I have no doubt that Rocky helped their aging process along as you've already alluded to. But I don't think it was just that. For the sake of not sounding like a broken record, I won't repeat my reasoning.

I don't have any evidence. The best I can offer is that the bulk of their best wins ( Charles and Walcott's ) came arguably between the years of 1946-1951. Walcott met Marciano in 1952 and again in 1953. Charles had both of his fights with Rocky in 1954. In addition, while both guys were in great shape, they showed up at weights that were just a tad on the high end of the spectrum of what they usually appeared at, although Charles was more ideal in the first fight at 185, but 192 for the rematch. This isn't a big deal of course but still. And needless to say, they were either shot or retired immediately following those fights.

When you say Louis was still rated #1 I'm not sure for which fight you're alluding. Ring Magazine had him roughly at #6 in 1951 - The year he met Rocky, but maybe the National boxing association ( NBA ) had a rating system of their own? I don't know. That's not something I'm too familiar with. But yes, Louis was still an able bodied fighter when he met Rocky and riding an active winning streak. Certainly better than most of the available fighters around, but just no where near his best.

It could be that they came alive for one night only and had an exceptional performance while being past prime or maybe had the right chemistry to trouble Marciano. I won't argue that they were completely "shot" as they clearly weren't, but I think we'd be swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction to suggest that they were in the peaks of their primes.

Fair enough.

 

-Yeah, I addressed the KO.

-No need to.

-Walcott's best win was only a year and one fight prior to the Maricano meeting. Satterfield was a big win for Charles in 54 as was the third Layne match. Though one judge and the ref didn't see it his way, the Johnson fight was an incredible filmed performance. Johnson at his peak was right there with Moore and Charles, oddly was going to challenge to Marciano but opted out apparently.

I read somewhere Charles intentionally came in heavier because he had his mind set on knocking out Marciano early because he took a beating trying to outbox him, didn't seem to work out.

-He was rated #1 as of the Feb. 51 issue, and he did beat #2 Savold prior to Marciano. He was #6 in Feb 52 which may have covered just after Marciano. But Louis is certainly one I would be drawing comparisions to Old Foreman and Holmes too despite being younger.

-Rocky certainly seemed to inspire them as those fights are credited as their best performances. But its not like they were doing too shabby prior either. Charles had a few losses but as mentioned had some great performances too.

 

I'm going to chalk this debate up to a stale mate. Our positions differ in that you believe these men to have been prime when they fought Marciano, while I think they were past it. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between.

 

The Marcianistic Narrative is that he destroyed Charles and Walcott, both of whom otherwise would have gone on to control the division until Patterson's arrival, despite both were old in every sense of the word as it applies to boxing. Present objective facts and they will be fantastically spun into the fabric of the Marciano fable, tho I must admit as far as sporting fables his is not the worst...

 

Who would have been Champion if not Rocky?

Charles would have been froze out of course but would have kept on fighting anyone he could as he did. Maybe he would lost his passion if nobody took the belt from Walcott to offer him a new stab at it.

Walcott would have likely defended against Louis and Layne in winnable fights. Who can say for sure if he would retire after that? Johnson and Moore would have probably made a play eventually in some sort of superfight with Walcott. Valdez would be next.

I'm not sure LaStarza would ever beat Walcott or Charles, his people sure weren't confident of it, but he would have to cash out eventually.

 

:good

 

This did nothing for evanders pace. The whole body building episode was tailored to fighting slower heavy giants who needed to rest. He became a spurt fighter himself. Holyfeild was fighting men who rested part of the round so he did not need pace. Against Rocky what is he going to do when he needs to rest?

All this artificially enhanced size would work against Holyfeild against Rocky, just like putting 30lb of extra shiny muscles onto Ezzard Charles would have worked against him against Rocky. It would have slowed Charles down too.

 

Holyfeild was a terrific fighter. As a heavyweight he fought in explosive bursts as a spurt fighter. Now, punch totals totted up at the conclusion of a fight don't tell the whole story. And we all know about punch stats. Feints and missed blows are recorded as well as blows of insufficient force within combination.

Evander had a great career. Within a short amount of fights he was doing 15 rounds against Qwai at world level. The jury was out on him as a heavyweight until Bowe II, the fan man night where Riddick showed up out of shape. Evander proved everyone wrong. He rebounded from the Moorer loss, heart attacks and the Bowe stoppage to beat comeback Tyson gain revenge over Moorer and take Lewis to two close fights.

But throughout all of that Holyfeild would rest after exerting himself. Against Bert Cooper he took him to the brink of a stoppage umpteen times but had to rest, letting Bert back into the fight over and over. Against Bowe the last time evander had to back off after flooring him for fear if punching himself out. Actually backing away whilst Bowe was propped up helpless against the ropes like a stricken Frank Bruno. This let Bowe off the hook and back into a fight he won.

This was the small price Evander paid for carrying artificial weight in order to fight naturaly bigger men. A trade off that worked because he could still out pace and out game bigger men. Against men closer to bis natural size this could work against Holyfeild though…

Putting 30lb on Ezzard Charles would not make him beat Rocky. It would just allow him to be more competative against Riddick Bowe.