Rocky Marciano vs Evander Holyfield

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by baconmaker, Apr 26, 2014.


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  1. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Damn near close to it. :good
     
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    #181
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Holyfeild had a brilliant, steady workrate in that fight.

    However once Evander beefed up he became an interval fighter who needed to take a break after each explosive burst of action.
     
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    #182
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think that's an absolutely astonishing thing to say. The forty plus punches he threw in round ten of the first fight with Bowe shows is one of the best exhibitions of stamina i've ever seen in a HW ring. He might be the only athlete so brilliantly conditioned as to be able to do so after absorbing that hellacious beating.

    But he showed great stamina in other fights, too. Foreman, Moorer (I guess that we disagree does matter now), Holmes. I'd rate his stamina at heavy as being among the best heavies.

    Yeah, I think you would have to give Marciano the edge in workrate.

    Do you know which rounds are the 100 plus so i could take a look?
     
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    #183
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    dont worry, nobody is perfect.:good
     
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    #184
  5. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    -Not astonishing at all, 20 minutes of rest is a big deal, not sure what the first fight has to do with that. I think he was better conditioned in the first fight at 205. Maybe not the best exhibition of stamina I've ever seen but it was brave display to be sure.

    -In Round 8 he's been credited as high as 116 punches, mostly power shots.
     
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    #185
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's not about which fight it happened in; it's about the astonishing display of stamina.

    It's possible, but given that he threw many more punches in the second fight, the opposite is hardly inarguable.

    I think i'll take a look after dinner. I would really like to get a punchstat thing going for older fight films, but how to know who to trust?
     
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    #186
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    In theory that could be a good idea. But what is a true punch stat anyway? It is a guide to activity that is all. Effective punching does not come into it. Take mid combination punches do you count them? Or do you count just the clean ones?
     
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    #187
  8. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I think its more about measuring stamina. Or at least in the sense he seems to be alluding.
     
    mr. magoo, May 2, 2014
    mr. magoo, May 2, 2014
    #188
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I suppose..but then what about crafty fighters like Hopkins? Statistically he should stand no chance against a high punch stat guy but then he just slows stuff down to a walking trot.

    It's a guide. Of sorts.
     
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    choklab, May 2, 2014
    #189
  10. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    -Evander is the one greatest survivors of all time, he was looking dead tired in the 10th but when Bowe hurt him and put him in the corner, he just came firing back with a third wind. It did cost him in the next round as he had nothing left and got dropped to seal Bowe's points victory.

    -If he got a 20+ minute rest half way through the first fight, who knows what would have happened. Would he have got burned out and dropped in the 11th? Maybe not. And highly likely he would have thrown more punches.

    -Not a bad idea. I think he totaled about 100 in the 15th round of the first Charles fight which is rather insane.
     
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    #190
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Bowe beats Rocky too.:good
     
    mcvey, May 2, 2014
    mcvey, May 2, 2014
    #191
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think that most fighters wouldn't enjoy taking a twenty minute rest unless it was under very specific conditions, ideal conditions and I think that this has been reflected by the Prizefighters preperations. It's not "going again" that is the problem but cooling down, pain, adrenaline dropping off etc. Holyfield suffered all these things.

    Is it possible that he would have thrown fewer punches had fan man not happened? Yes, absolutely.

    Is it possible that he would have thrown more? Yes, absolutely, unquestionably.

    The point is, you can't toss it out. You can asterix it, but you have to accept it may have hurt him as well as helped him. I think it helped Bowe more for example, which would naturally lend itself to hurting Holyfield's output.

    Hard to trust people though. I think you could probably get enough guys together to do two major distance fights for every major filmed heavyweight champion though, for example.
     
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    #192
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    At his rare best, maybe.
     
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    McGrain, May 2, 2014
    #193
  14. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Coming from you, who doesn't?
     
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    The Mongoose, May 2, 2014
    #194
  15. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Probably a safe bet.
     
    mr. magoo, May 2, 2014
    mr. magoo, May 2, 2014
    #195
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