Rocky Marciano vs Evander Holyfield

Nah, we are still here.

 

No it isn't. You're making a case for Charles and Moore being prime at heavy on the basis that had good showings there. I pointed out that Spinks and Jones had good showings there too, but that it didn't mean they were prime. Is it the best analogy? Maybe not. but it draws a parallel to what you're talking about and how I disagree with it.

 

Nah. This analogy just isn't right at all.

For one thing Charles and Moore didn't bulk up to HW, they cut weight to make LHW in their heydays. That's a big difference.

And we aren't talking about some good showings. Charles was a full time HW by the time he was 27 years old, he won the title and defended it 9 times. He was the man in the division. His run as a LHW contender was only two years while in his mid 20s after returning from the War and even than, he frequently fought various HW opponents and contenders of various size, style, and quality during this run.

Moore like Charles, freely mixed it up with various HW contenders and opponents of various size and style throughout his LHW run. His LHW and HW success from 47-55 is concurrent and intertwined, he also fought more frequently above 175, only cutting weight to make title defenses.

 

The analogy is fine. Charles and Moore were career light heavyweights. Spinks and Jones were career light heavyweights.. Charles and Moore had success at heavyweight. Spinks and Jones had success at heavyweight. None of the four were at their best weight in that class. Moore and Charles are best known by most as being the #1 and #2 best light heavyweight of all time. Not the #1 and #2 heavyweight. This in and of itself speaks volumes. And Marciano didn't fight Charles at 27 so the mentioning of it is moot. Holyfield was bigger, stronger, more athletic, and possibly more durable than Marciano or at least just as, and even beat some fighters who had similar styles. I'm satisfied with my pick. Have a nice evening.

 

-What exactly is a career Light Heavyweight? Certainly not a fighter who only spent two years in the division or one that predominantly fought above 175. Spinks maybe the only fighter here I can see that applied to.

-Yeah, Jones and Spinks may have beat 3 HWs combined. Very successful. Charles and Moore roughly over a 100 or more combined.

-Do we call Holyfield a career CW or disregard his success at HW because he is the #1 CW. He was prime at both CW and HW as was Charles and Moore at LHW and HW.

 

Regardless of how long you wish to debate on what a "true" light heavyweight or heavyweight is, one thing that's undeniable is that Charles, Moore AND Marciano wouldn't even be heavyweights in Holyfield's time in the division. Even at cruiserweight he was a larger man than they were, and at heavyweight would have had a significant advantage in size and strength. This of course isn't everything, but it would work to Holy's advantage. Marciano would bulldoze his way to the inside, only to get tied up and controlled in the clinches. Every punch from Evander would take effect, while Holy would feel comfortable trading at will with him, given his proven ability to wage war with big hard punching men. I don't see Rocky beating him at all.

 

Holyfeild was a manufactured heavyweight. Only modern advances made him into the heavyweight he was...a spurt fighter. This gave him enough size to stop him being thrown around so much inside but took away natural stamina, this was not a bad compromise since he was taking on even bigger men with an even slower fighting pace. Holyfeild got away with it only because his tempo achieved results in spurts whilst the other man rested.

Holyfeild would not need to be a manufactured heavyweight against Marciano. The artificial size and artificial strength he developed would compromise him during the parts of the rounds where he needed to rest. Any impression evander could make with his enhanced physique during his spurts of activity would play into the inside exchanges Marciano would relish. Marciano would return shots with him and keep it up after each of Holyfeilds spurts of action was complete.

Remember, Holyfeild is not letting go with fast hands against a man who will need to rest. Sure, he can hang on and maul more effectively than he did against the 230 pounders with Marciano but those guys were not looking to work the whole time. Rocky will be.

Leaning on to Sapp the strength of the other fellow is seen as an effective way to work whilst resting with modern heavyweights and this was why Evander had to enhance his chances within this kind of tactical strategy. It would not be required here.

Marciano is not going to lean on holyfeild and rest, he is going to punch him. A lot. Evander would be better served in a condition that would allow him to use speed and workrate.

 

Holyfield was 187 lbs when he stopped 190lbs Qawi flooring him twice. Of Marciano's 6 challengers only 3 were over 190lbs. Either version of Holyfield has an even chance of beating Marciano. Marciano's pressure was constant but steady, he was not fast of either hand or foot, neither was he more durable or stronger than Holyfield. Marciano relied heavily on condition and will to win, against Holyfield he would be matched in these departments.

 

Well it was a better performance than I've ever seen Holyfield produce? So go me yes? And against a better prime ATG than Holyfield produced a comparable performance against?

 

Tyson was simply not the same fighter he had been - still a force don't get me wrong but you can't compare that Tyson with an absolute peak Marciano for instance?

The Bowe Holy beat came in in pretty shoddy condition tho an really let himself down but he was kind of notorious for that tho?

Lewis won pretty easily in the first fight IMO so Lewis is a mute point - aside from the fact that I don't consider that to have been a prime Lewis anyway?

The Moorer that Holy beat was in bad shape as well - he looked nothing like the fighter who won the first fight?

Douglas was in embarrassing shape and that was one of the most embarrassing showings by a new champ - I thought everyone new that didn't they??

And Dokes??!!! Jesus he was anchient??!!

 

that is ten pounds lighter than Marcianos debut weight. Evander was around 169lb when he started out.

But they could beat up 200 pounders easily enough.

No spurt fighter is beating marciano.

You are not including Marcianos superior, two handed punching power here. Why is that?

If two men are equally durable but one is easier to hit and the guy getting hit more often is against a better puncher (many times harder punching) I think that would be a considerable advantage.

Evander is potentially getting hit more times from a better puncher.

You have admitted Marciano has a higher work rate. I think Marciano was stronger, at least in a "not getting pushed back" sense.

 

The fact that you are trying to compare the Walcott/Charles/Moore that fought Marciano with Holmes that beat Mercer and Foreman that beat Moorer (!!!???) shows that you really know nothing at all - that is an utterly farcical thing to say really - so far off the mark atsch

 

Marciano dominated the Louis fight from start to finish? I take Holy to have a tougher time because he didn't have the crowding style or the punching power - Holy struggled at times with Foreman for christs sake and he could barely even stay balanced when he was loading up?

 

??? :huh:roll::admin what?? I hope you're joking there??

 

A more measured attack is exactly what is needed versus Holyfield I don't follow? That's exactly what he'd get from Marciano?