Rocky Marciano vs. FOTC Muhammad Ali

I agree and I explained this.

I don't know if I agree with this. Ali from 71 didn't have the same timing and admits he overlooked Frazier. Although he goes for the KO his conditioning is no where near where it should be. Personally, I feel he was a better and ever smarter fighter around 73-74. Physical potential, yeah maybe... but what's that matter really? What's there is there from what we saw of Ali in FOTC. Walcott had an unpredictable cutesy style to him that was troubling for Marciano. I won't argue the point, but Marciano was blind for 3-4 of the middle rounds. Got to be important to note.

Yes

All the better reasons why he's more effective smothering Ali on the ropes. Head-movement from Joe was little as Ali had little room to get off on him firing back. You're very wrong on the less intense part. You couldn't be more intense with Marciano firing at you when your on the ropes. Marciano would've picked up the pace far greater when he needed to with Ali on the ropes. No doubt...

Ali did lay on the ropes often to take breathers. Joe is a little tired himself. Ali fires back occasionally trying to make rounds competetive but he is no shape or form to be able to come back with anything threatening or lethal. He's very tired and accepts being idle on the ropes. Frazier's patience and attack on Ali isn't near the pressure/pace Marciano would bring against Ali if he were on the ropes.

Cuts could be a factor. That's one of Marciano's weaknesses. Marciano cut a lot. Very frequently but neve really too devastatingly. Was cut against Walcott, and a bit against Charles in their first fight. However, that nose incident was a freak elbow. The fight could get stopped but a huge fight like this would go on and I don't think Marciano cuts would damage his eyes or trouble him too much. Anything could happen, though.

 

That's fine. I just think prime Rocky against the FOTC Ali is a fight for the Rock to win. But most people here are picking Ali. The near 50/50 margin of prime Ali vs prime Frazier has to have more to do with Frazier actually having beaten Ali. I agree that stylistically Frazier has more advantages against a prime Ali. But the FOTC Ali that was on the ropes for as much as he was... that would just lay right into one of Marciano's benefits.

 

I'd favor Marciano. Not a sure thing. I think Ali would be punished through the 12th as much by Marciano as by Frazier, and much worse in the last three rounds. Scoring wise, Ali might be in a little better shape through 10 against Marciano than he would have against Frazier.
I'd put in a Marciano from the Charles fights, more so than the Marciano from the first Walcott fight.

 

Frazier did not stop him and the slower Marciano doing it is a hell of a reach for me. I think the fight of the century Ali was still much better than Walcott, Charles or Moore and he decisions Rocky. However, the ref could play a big part in the outcome depending on how he lets them fight ..

 

Prime Marciano vs. the March 8,1971 Ali?.....The Rock wins this...

 

The thing is, Marciano isn't as slow as people think. There's a difference between Marciano of Louis/Walcott and Moore in terms of handspeed. Watch this video about defensive fighters Great A put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Pw2elzBik&feature=related

1:59-2:31 - Rocky versus Walcott

3:54-4:18 - Rocky against Moore

Rocky measuring his man in the second one. Still, quite a difference in handspeed. The first makes Rocky look not that slow after all. In reality he wasn't.

 

Of course not. However against the all time best he falls short.

 

Marciano was a lot faster than he is givin credit for, He beat Jersey Joe to the punch in the fatal 13th and Walcott had quick hands. I see the fight close to Ali Frazier one except that Marciano would be effective with the right hand as well as the hook. Ali would flurry but take a few while doing so. I see Marciano's work rate and stamina getting to Ali by the last 3rd of the fight and a RSF ending or a UD for Marciano. Marciano could get a cut but other than minor cuts ( the nose vs Charles was a freak elbow) Marciano was never in trouble of being stopped on cuts. Marciano TKO 15

 

Very objective post. I agree that Frazier may fare better for the first half of the fight and maybe gets of better in the middle rounds but no way he finishes better.

If there was one man who would be able to TKO Ali it would probably be Marciano or maybe Tyson. Others are obviously capable of it as anything can really happen in boxing. I think a UD is the most likely decision over a TKO but Marciano has a better shot than Frazier does. He definitely would finish stronger, and seeing this would expose Marciano for having unsurpassed stamina. Yet people will even try to find a way to discredit or underrate this immaculate quality of his.

 

Toss-up.

 

There's a significant difference overall in attack speed between Frazier and Marciano in terms of putting pressure on Ali. First of all, Marciano doesn't move his fists, feet, or head as fast as Frazier. This alone would put Ali much further ahead in the early round scoring as opposed to Frazier who usually loses the early rounds against almost anyone.

Now PetethePrince, before you go slicing and dicing my post, I will say that Marciano has the potential to get better and finish stronger than Frazier as the fight goes on closing the gap against Ali due to the fact that his pace is slower than Fraziers from the early rounds. You can't deny that Marciano would spend way less energy against Ali than Frazier because he fought out of a lower, slower, stalking crouch, banging both hooks to the body, especially his right when he got inside. Whether or not he'd be able to catch Ali in the scoring is different. Indeed Frazier slows down a tad after the 12th round and into the late rounds, but the evidence is as clear as a blue sky. Marciano never fought with the same speed moving forward and attacking as Frazier. If Frazier fought at Marciano's pace, I think he'd finish just as strong as Rocky because Joe's head movement, bobbing, slipping, ducking and weaving would still be a factor in the fight. We have both argued in the purist sense about who has more stamina between Marciano and Frazier, and I still believe it is a toss up. You can probably give a slight edge to Marciano, but I would only justify this because Marciano's body is less busier than Frazier in terms of their attack style. To this very day, I haven't seen another fighter under 6'0, with the exception of a young Mike Tyson, move in and attack the opponent with the pressure speed of Frazier. Also, Mike didn't duck and weave as much as Frazier, and neither did Marciano. Tyson used the shoulder slips on boths sides, sometimes double slipping to set up both hooks to the body. Marciano would roll under his opponents punches as identified by Emmanuel Steward, Gil Clancy and Lou Duva, whom I've heard specifically tell their fighters to roll under the opponents punches. Goldman made Marciano roll very low under the heavy bag which is a tough, difficult exercise that not many heavyweight fighters do, therefore giving credit to Marciano's body and overall stamina.

You PetethePrince can't deny that you favour Marciano as a fighter so the issue of being subjective when discussing fights is sometimes not accurate on your part. Likewise I can honestly say I've had my moments on this forum where I've been too discriminate in favour of Frazier, but my argument never changes and not without reason. There are still many on this forum I believe who discredit Frazier's win in the FOTC, and try to use it cheaply to suggest Frazier would have never been a champion if Ali wasn't exiled. Ali was rusty, no doubt it after a three year layoff, but he wasn't that far removed from his prime years. In fact, many will say that Ali was tougher and punched harder due to the fact that he had to sit down on his punches more in the 1970's. Add to the fact that during his first reign, he was one of the most elusive big men that didn't get hit as cleanly. The same thing can be said about Frazier's decline except that there was no exile or jail term. The difference is the fact that Frazier's style was to absorb punches to land his own shots that were bigger. Against Foreman, Joe severely underestimated George's ability as a gold medalist and athlete and the fact that he wasn't near FOTC shape. Once again I'm not saying that Frazier would beat Foreman, but I'd certainly give the 1967 - 1970 Joe a legit chance at winning the fight in the later rounds. More people on this forum have said that Marciano could beat Foreman and stop him, but fail to give the prime version of Frazier any credit when it comes to facing any of the big punchers in the history of the sport, especially Foreman.

 

unbelievble that you really think that. i mean everybody has a right to his own opinion but that doesn't mean everybody is allowed to talk bull****. the FOTC Ali is still way to fast for rocky. ali has a greater reach and is a much more intelligent fighter. his fast jabs will make rockys face looking like after a carcrash. ali is in a total different class as marciano. it's like comparing a volkswagen to a ferrari

 

Good post round15. Obviously I have to address a few things.

Okay. Frazier's footspeed is faster so he brings pressure coming in at a quicker pace. This is undeniable. This asset is Frazier's biggest strength and benefit against Ali. If you see FOTC with the overahead camera you get a better glimpse of Frazier's relentless attack and workings of the angles. In terms of handspeed it is a lot closer than you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2-5fq0sGMs

4:17 and 6:18. Watch those combos by Rocky and tell me that you never knew he could strike so fast. Now, show me a combo from Frazier that hard that makes Rocky look that much slower. Indeed he was, but let's not overstate it. That's something we all get a customed of doing see post title Rocky fights. I believe the Walcott fight took a little out of Rocky. A came out noticably slower.

That's very likely. However, Frazier you could argue was a bit slower of a starter. It's a moot point, however what isn't is that Joe is a RYTHM fighter which is why it takes a while for him to get off. I can buy this statement but there are other factors into the equation that could suggest Marciano do better because they were different fighters. Just a thought.

Oh dear

I actually can. I believe you overstate this. Marciano getting low and rolling out of the crouch is very strenous, especially to the back and core muscle. I've done Joe's bobbing and weaving for awhile and I don't find it as tiring to the muscles nor as draining as you would indicate. I get your point. But with what I've said you also have to include that Marciano bombed virtually every punch with everything he had. This in and of itself could arguably match the energy output they would be wasting in their reserves. If NOT MORE... try wining every punch at the heavy bag for 10-15 minutes. Do so without stopping or pawing at the bag for a break. Then do so for 10-15 minutes with little breathers while inside. This is what Frazier does. He gets patient but he also doesn't just pound away consecutively. Every shot isn't a bomb. So again, I below you overfactor Frazier's bobbing and weaving while underfactoring Marciano's roll and power in every punch.

Yes, we covered that Frazier was more relentless in his pace with his footwork. However his punch output is no where near Marciano's through the course of a fight. Whether that be potentially or something we've physically seen. Marciano wasn't gifted with fast feet. But Dempsey's fast footwork than Frazier and Tyson's are examples of gifts. It's not like this drained them anymore. With faster footspeed Marciano isn't going to tire out, don't kid yourself.

That's quite silly as far as I'm concerned. You feel people underrate Frazier here well I feel you're underrated Marciano. The crouch rolling in and out of while attacking from all angles takes a lot of strain on your body. Frazier bob & weave is more rythm and it's really a bob and weave of little movement. Marciano's bobbing and weaving travels far more distance. Marciano bombs with every punch being a power punch. Marciano has a much higher punch output. So no, you're dead wrong on this.

That's insulting to Marciano. Frazier wanes and slows done so much in the later rounds if his fights. Marciano just keeps pummeling on. It's not even close, unless you overestimate how taxing his style is while downplay the significant leg power, core and back muscle Marciano's style takes while adding the fact that he throws more punches with every punch being a bomb. Marciano's stamina is superior to Frazier's. It would be like comparing Holmes handspeed and footspeed to Ali's. Clearly Ali is superior in these departments.

Here's a quote for you. Mike Silver (Boxing Historian), "Marciano trained like an old time bare knuckle fighter. He had the endurance to go 20 rounds, he could knock you out in the 20th round."

Dempsey had quicker footspeed than Frazier.

Right, it's also incredibly strenous. To be frank, to move my head like Tyson's with that speed and through that much distance is similiar in strain than emulating Frazier's style. That rythm bob & weave doesn't travel much a distance in head-movement. It's important to note that Tyson's head-movement fades during the end of fights more than Frazier's. Obviously JOe has superior stamina, but this would be like trying to make a case that Tyson's style was more taxing therefore he had to tire out more. That's almost how I feel about your way of doing so with Frazier against Marciano. I think it was Larry Holmes that said (Paraphrasing), "I thought Tyson would tire out. You can't just keep throwing bombs like that. Foreman did he get tired, Tyson did he gets tired."

Subjectivity and being accurate? Anyway, if you're trying to say I'm more biased than me on the subject you're getting no where. You feel I favor Rocky, I feel you favor Frazier. I'm not going to get into a who is more biased contest.

Nor does mine.

That's a double standard my friend. To ignore the physical conditioning and ring rust of Ali to act as if Joe beat the best of version of him that not while giving Joe leeway because of his decline and not training as hard as he should have been. Ali repeatedly said he overlooked Frazier afterwards. Throughout the film you can tell his stamina isn't where it should be while he doesn't seem to have the timing. Bonavena troubled him at times, it's no wonder Frazier beat him. I believe Ali was better from 72-73 than in FOTC. Just as how I believe Joe Louis was better in 1951 rather than 1950. And the film proves my case well too.

Marciano beating Foreman? That's just bordering fantasy. What poster said that. And no Frazier doesn't beat Foreman. Conditioning might help him in the long run and help him recovery from blows but it ain't going to stop him from being on the canvas as much as he will.

 

With all your analyzing let's just forget styles for a second. Marciano trained like a dog. Trained for months on months in preparation. It is said that Frazier was in camp the most for Thrilla which was 5 or 6 weeks. This obviously wouldn't be satisfying to Marciano. He would train endlessly for 2 months and on even for a lesser caliber fighter. Marciano's training is legendary, and film proves this.

 

Rocky would be more remembered for being the first fighter in boxing history to be cut to ribbons without a knife being used. Rocky was only 184 lbs. Rocky couldn't beat Frazier or Norton. R.I.P. The guys who think Rocky beats Ali must live in a time warp, and you're stuck there with no way out.