Rocky Marciano vs. Jim Jeffries

I was going to edit my post by providing that other poster with this generic link from wikepedia ( not usually the best source )

Funny, this link lists the same muscles that I mentioned as being part of the posterior chain and what they are used for, despite the fact that I never even looke at this site. The info is very correct though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterior_chain

As for Jeffries inability to dominate middleweights and old heavyweights, I agree with you. This was a result of a very flawed style of fighting which involved poor defensive techniques and relied too much on grabbing tactics.

 

If you do head to head based on taking a person in their prime from a time machine, and having them fight someone else taken in the same fashion; then odds are the person fighting past 1950 is going to defeat most prior to. The difference in technique is too evolved for pioneers of the sport to compete.

I try to be fair to fighters of earlier times. I pretend both came along at the same time; and have access to the same training methods, and same techniques. This is the only reason I picked Jeffries over Marciano.

I would pick Jorge Luis Gonzalez to beat Jeffries if you were discussing the way I mentioned earlier.

 

OLD FOGEY,

Louis had lost his power by the time he fought Marciano. The proof is in the pudding. Louis had but 3 Stoppages in his last 10 fights, with the 10th and final match being Marciano. Clearly the old snap and power was not there for Louis when he came back to pay off Uncle Sam. Louis is dismissed.

Charles had some power at light heavy, but not much power at heavy.

Layne has but 30 KO's in 74 fights. Did he ever stop someone decent and durable? I Say Layne power was only solid.

Moore and Walcott were the best punchers Marciano fought. Both had him down. Walcott had him hurt, and Moore had him arm weary. Neither Moore or Walcott are among the best 50 punchers ever at heavyweight.

My point was it seems like other all time greats all fought better punchers.
Here's a roll call.

Jeffries - Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Choysnki,
Johnson - McVey, Willard, Langford
Dempsey - Fulton, Firpo, Willard
Tunney - Dempsey
Louis - Schmeling, Baer, Baer
Liston - Williams, Patterson
Ali - Foreman, Frazier, Lyle
Holmes - Cooney, Smith, Shavers
Tyson - Lewis, Bruno, Ruddock
Lewis - Tua, Tyson, Klitschko

Only Tunney seems to have fought less elite level punchers than Marciano. Hence, Marciano’s chin is untested by guys who hit harder than Walcott and Moore. Through out heavyweight history there were at least 50 who did.

 

Good post,with some research to it!

 

Great fight...but as usual...I'll go with"The Rock" in this one! I just don't see anyone out slugging Rocky Marciano......

 

Marciano had Rex Layne, Joe Walcott and perhaps Archie Moore.

I think Firpo, and Jess Willard AT the time Willard fought Dempsey are over rated punchers. Willard only had 1 fight in 4 years, and that one went the distant. Firpo was a crude wild swinger, sure he could hit. Perhaps as hard as Rex Layne. Lets also rember Willard didnt relly land anything on Dempsey.

 

I'm surprised Old Fogey would bring up fights outside of Jeffries prime to criticize him. Do you think Marciano's losses in the amateurs should be held against him? From 1899-1904 only one of Jeffries opponnents lasted the distance.

 

Fogey uses irrelevant information where ever he can to discredit fighters or better suit his arguments. Don't call him on it though, he might put you on his ignore list.

 

I dont think this is conclusive evidence at all. did you actually watch louis fights in his comeback? he busted up charles and marcianos face horribly with his heavy punches. The very durable lee savold was knocked out by 1 punch(marciano couldnt floor savold) by louis. 37 year old Louis at muscular 215lb could still hit, nowhere near like he used too, but he could defintley still hit hard. want evidence? watch film........ here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3gEciMGusA



Heres Joe Louis fight with the very durable pat valentino in 1950, dont tell me watching this fight that louis didnt still have power........

 

That was a response to Mendoza's quote that Marciano "took forever to ko chinny guys."

If you make a statement like that, you can count on someone to do an analysis.

Jeffries--total career listed on boxrec--fought 209 rounds in 20 fights-14 knockouts--average of over 10 rounds per fight.
Marciano--total career--fought 242 rounds in 49 fights-43 knockouts--average of less than 5 rounds per fight.

Jeffries--record against name fighters in total career (Griffin, Ruhlin (2), Choynski, Everett, Goddard, Jackson, Sharkey (2), Armstrong, Fitzsimmons (2), Corbett (2), Munroe)--fought 178 rounds in 15 fights, slightly less than 12 rounds per fight. (I left off Johnson)
Marciano-(Muscato, LaStarza (2), Shkor, Layne, Beshore, Louis, Savold, Reynolds, Matthews, Walcott (2), Charles (2), Cockell, Moore)--fought 116 rounds in 16 fights, slightly more than 7 rounds per fight.

Jeffries in prime--1899 to 1904-fights with Fitz (2), Sharkey, Corbett (2), Ruhlin, Munroe-Jeffries fought 84 rounds in 7 fights, averaging 12 rounds per fight.
Marciano in prime--from Layne fight in 1951 to 1955 (Layne, Beshore, Louis, Savold, Reynolds, Matthews, Walcott (2), LaStarza, Charles (2), Cockell, Moore)--95 rounds in 13 fights, averaging slightly more than 7 per fight.

SuzieQ's point, in rebuttal to Mendoza's over-the-top statement that Jeffries was superior in all aspects of fighting to Marciano, maintaining that Marciano was the superior puncher, is backed up by the statistics.

 

1. Louis--Louis had knocked out only 3 men in 8 fights, but he did knock out rated fighters in Savold and Beshore. Let's compare him to Choynski, whom you rate as one of the three top punchers Jeffries faced. For his career Choynski ko'd 29 men in 82 fights. Coming into the Jeffries fight, he had knocked out 4 of his last 15 opponents. After the Jeffries fight, he went the distance with his next 9 opponents over the next two years, so he was on a run of 4 knockouts in 24 fights.
I think it is possible to challenge if Choynski was a top puncher at heavyweight at all. His most impressive early knockouts, Mick Dooley, Jim Hall, and old George Godfrey are over men who were middleweights or lightheavies (Godfrey weighed 175)-later knockouts of Peter Maher and Steve O'Donnell were also over men who made less than 175 late into their careers--Maher was 172 for his fight with Kid McCoy in 1900. Even Jack Johnson only weighed 168 for his fight with Jim McCormick in 1900. It is possible that Choynski never knocked out a top contender who weighed more than 175 or at least 180. He did knock out journeyman Joe McAuliffe, who was probably over 210, but Mickey Walker and Charley Burley, among others, were also capable of stopping big, but second-level heavyweights. It doesn't make them punching threats to top men.
I think it is foolish to claim Choynski as a harder puncher than the 215 pound Louis of 1951.

 

Good analysis of averages, but the one thing we have to take into account, is that the vast ajority of Marciano's early KO's came in his first 30 fights, while Jeffries won the world title with only 11 pro fights, implying that he fought better comp earlier. If you look at most of Marciano's wins past his first 30 fights, a lot of those 1st,2nd and 3rd round KO's start to disappear.

 

1. Ezzard Charles--The argument that Charles could or did not punch at heavyweight is bizarre to say the least. Between 1947 and 1954, he knocked out Jimmy Bivins, Elmer Ray, Joe Baksi, Pat Valentino, Lee Oma, Rex Layne, Tommy Harrison, Coley Wallace, and Bob Satterfield, all in the Ring yearly ratings when he fought them, as well as Freddie Beshore, Joe Kahut, and Bernie Reynolds, all of whom had been rated. I would point out that if the lightheavies that Choynski and Sharkey ko'd back when the heavyweight division began at 160 lbs are counted, Charles should get credit for Archie Moore, Gus Lesnevich, Anton Christoforidis, Booker Beckworth, Mose Brown, Lloyd Marshall, Boardwalk Billy Smith, Nick Barone, Sam Baroudi, etc. I don't know how to transfer youtube to here, but see Charles greatest hits on youtube to see films of his knockouts of Valentino, Oma, Layne, and Sattersfield.
I would rate Charles a much better and proven heavyweight puncher than Choynski or Sharkey. Sharkey's big ko's are over the middleweight McCoy (156 lbs for their fight) and the lightheavy Choynski. He did knock out Ruhlin and Goddard, but Charles certainly ko'd more men of that size and ability, and also generally bigger men. such as the 210 lb Baksi and the 215 lb Haynes.
2, Both Lee Savold (65 career knockouts) and Harry Matthews (61 career knockouts) were dangerous punchers. I printed the long list of contenders and near contenders Savold stopped over a fourteen year period in an earlier post. Suffice it to say Savold stopped five men who were ranked at one point or another as top five heavyweights, Lou Nova, Lem Franklin, Johnny Flynn, Buddy Walker, and Bruce Woodcock. Matthews came into the Marciano fight riding a string of 15 knockouts in 17 fights.

 

That is why I printed their records in their primes as well as over their whole careers. Of his last ten fights, Marciano still ended 4 of them in 3 rounds or earlier.

Also, it is certainly worth noting that Jeffries went twenty or more rounds five times, and ended only one with a knockout. This should at least raise a flag concerning Jeff's ability to carry his punch late, despite his reputation.

I think it also worth noting that Marciano fought to 32, while Jeffries scored his last victory at 29. This works to Jeff's advantage.

 

Had old Foreman lost his power in his second career? He had a very low knockout percentage against name opponents (Stewart, Schulz, Cooney, Holyfield, Morrison, Moorer, Savarese, Briggs). Most would argue, though, that this was the result of the deterioration of the aging Foreman's other skills and not because he didn't still have a big punch. All of Louis' comeback fights were against name opponents, except for Walker. Like Foreman, he had a relatively low knockout percentage against name opposition- note, though, he did dominantly knock out Savold, who had only been stopped once in the last 10 years. The fact is, Louis was perhaps the greatest knockout puncher in the history of the heavyweight division- that kind of power does not disappear with age.

Not at all. Charles did not have "some" power at light heavyweight- he was known as the biggest puncher in the light heavyweight division during the mid-late '40s. He killed a man. And after moving up to heavyweight, he stopped the likes of Ray (hadn't been stopped in his last 59 fights), Baksi (only time he was ever stopped), Layne (had previously been known for a very sturdy chin), Valentino (a pretty durable guy by crushing knockout), Satterfield (crushing knockout), etc. He also had Walcott down in their third fight. Charles clearly hit hard enough to consistent hurt and knock out world-class heavyweights.

Um, no, he had 34 KOs in 70 fights- and mainly because of all the losses and sluggish performances near the end of his career. He had a 65% KO average against very strong competition going into the Marciano fight.

Though this never seems to sink in with people, I'll repeat anyway: they had him down for a grand total of five seconds and neither ever came at all seriously close to knocking him out. The fact that this is the worst that ever happened to Marciano in a professional career of 49 fights is absolutely remarkable.

It is true that most other champions have faced harder hitters than Walcott and Moore. But nearly every other champion was also knocked down by lighter hitters than Walcott and Moore.
Here's the roll call:
Jeffries: Munroe (in an exhibition), Johnson (about the same level of hitter)
Johnson: a bunch of guys
Dempsey: Tunney
Louis: Braddock
Liston: Marshall
Ali: Banks, Cooper
Frazier: Bruce
Holmes: Isaac, Snipes
Tyson: Douglas