Rocky Marciano vs. Jim Jeffries

You also forgot Wepner in Ali's knockdowns.

 

Yes, Old Foreman lost some of his power with age. Foreman Ko'd a bunch of carefully selected fighters. He landed clean on Moorer quite a bit before catching him late. The young Foreman hit much harder and had more of a dramatic effect when he landed. At any rate, the old Louis defiantly lost his power with age. His power and snap were gone. This is why he only stopped 3 of his last 10 opponents. I'm game for a separate thread on this topic ( Louis lost his power ) if you still disagree.

Charles did not have good power at heavyweight. Not a chance. In fact Charles was one of the weakest hitting heavyweight champions of all time. If you think Charles was not among he weakest hitting heavyweight champions, I'm game for a separate thread on the topic if you disagree. Elmer Ray, Bob Satterfield, and Joe Walcott had enough glass in their chins to make a chandelier. Charles wasn’t the only guy to floor / Ko'd them. I am not impressed with Charles power at heavyweight. In fact, I could argue that quite a few modern light heavies and cruisers hit harder.

Layne knocked out which quality heavyweight?

True, but my point is he faced lighter punchers in comparison to the other great champions. If Moore and Walcott could shake Maricano up and knock him down, then better punchers who were not old and chiny might do a bit more. Fight reports say Marciano was buzzed in fights vs the likes of Vingo and Lowry.

Jeffries: Munroe was an exhibition match. This doesn't count. I'm more than sure Rocky was down a few times in the gym. I think Johnson hit harder than Walcott and about even with Moore, but Jeffries was too old an in-active for this to count against him. Marciano retiring in his prime has everything to do with his un-defeated record.

Dempsey: Again, Dempsey was older / in-active. I would not put a lot of stock in this knockdown.

Ali: Copper was a good puncher, and he caught Ali with a near perfect shot.

Holmes: I think Snipes hit harder than Walcott or Charles, but lacked their skills.

Tyson: Douglas for sure hit harder than Walcott or Charles.

Back to my point, all of the above fighters were tested vs better punchers than Marciano faced. My conclusion is you can give Marciano a " grade A chin ".....vs " grade B " punchers.

I saw some chinks on video and in print to know that if Marciano was in vs Grade A puncher he would likely go down more often, and possibly out.

If Marciano fought outside of his prime like the above examples you used, I beleive he's going down or possibly out.

If Marciano fought quality opposition in his first 20 fights...I think he might have gone down. Marciano has a very padded record early on in comparison to most other great champions.

 

I disagree and actually would say he was even 'thrown into the lion's den' on occasion.

 

Some decent debates here, but try to keep it in moderation when talking of Jeffries 'style'.

Big Jeff was a work in progress up till retirement. He got by early on his natural ability, when his clinching and strength could smother the smaller, but far more pugilistically rounded likes of Choynski, jaw hanging off an all at the end.

However, as his career burned on as champion and he met similar foes he refined his crouching style and picked his punches more efficiently.

Jeffries was quite slated at times for taking so long to dispose of physically inferior foes, but perhaps it says more of his unherelded style of being almost up on his toes and probing away with single, rangy pops than it does of his incapabilities.

Jeffries could be aggressive when need be (closing moments of Fitz II), but, generally, he was far more passive in the ring than his fearsome reputation would lend to. His self theory of not wanting to hurt a man in fear of a fatal conclusion may indeed bare some truth.

Ted Spoon has swayed a little off point..this fight would be a taxing ordeal for both. If Jeff's rules are in effect than the Rock may be dragged into deeper waters than he could handle as wrestling is an integrated skill/requirement of 1900 boxing.

 

I agree Foreman's power had diminished- my point was that no one says "Foreman doesn't count as a puncher" when, say, he's mentioned as an opponent of Holyfield. A guy who's one of the hardest hitters of all time does not devolve into a feather-fists with age- he remains a serious threat. If Louis had fought creampuff opposition going into the Marciano fight, I expect he'd've been on a knockout streak. The problem was that his skills and reflexes were greatly diminished and he could no longer deliver on offense the way he could in his youth, not that he no longer hit especially hard. Even at that stage of his career, he still cleanly knocked out a legitimate top 10 heavyweight who had only been stopped once in 10 years prior four months before fighting Marciano. Most top power punchers would have had similarly low knockout percentages against the same series of opponents Louis fought in his last 10 fights.

1. You ignored the examples I gave of guys who were known for being durable who Charles floored/stopped.
2. Walcott didn't have a poor chin at all.In the last 12 years and 35 fights of his professional career- a period during which he faced one of the toughest roll calls of opposition any champion ever has- Walcott was stopped only by Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano. Charles flooring a prime Walcott is absolutely a show of legitimate power on a world scale.
Satterfield had a weak chin, but knocking him out early and in spectacular fashion like Charles did is still a noteworthy feat- Tunney, Corbett, etc. never knocked out veteran top 10 heavyweights with a single shot in the first couple rounds the way Charles did.
Ray's chin was perhaps on the weaker side, but he hadn't been stopped in five years and 59 fights when he fought Charles.

That's an especially tough proposition- Charles was definitely a banger at light heavyweight. The Indiana Evening Gazette, March 29, 1946, described him as "the flashy Cincinnati youngster with the potent wallop." Nat Fleischer, in 1947, called him a "one-punch knocker-out."According to the May, 1948 RING, he had "established himself as the biggest of all punchers aside from Joe Louis." The New York Times, Sep. 1 1948, described him as a "potent puncher." He knocked out long-time elite light heavyweights like Bivins, Moore and Marshall, and fatally knocked out a solid young contender in Baroudi. At light heavyweight, Charles was definitely a puncher.

Satterfield, Dunlap, and Whitlock were ranked around the time Layne knocked them out. Not a great knockout resume. But Layne clearly did have a reputation as a hard hitter; for example, the May, 1951 issue of RING magazine has quotes describing Layne as possessing "TNT sock and courage," being able to "take and give it," having a "whale of a right," etc.

Ali, Louis, Holmes, Dempsey, etc. fared worse against the same level of puncher than Marciano did and were all able to stand up to peak knockout artists.

There are also fight reports saying, for example, that Carpentier was one punch from knocking out Dempsey in the second round after sending him back into the ropes (watching the film, I believe this to be an enormous exaggeration), that Liston was buzzed in one of his fights with Howard King (in fact, that King potentially could've had Liston out if he'd seized the moment), that Frazier was seriously hurt for a moment against Machen (this does not appear to be the case on film), that McCline was "nearly knocked out" by Brock in the same round he scored the knockdown in (a huge exaggeration, in my opinion), etc.

An exhibition match isn't really the same as just being "in the gym"- you're actually in a ring boxing another guy for an audience, and in those days there was sometimes little distinguishment between an exhibition and a real match. He was actually floored by a punch from an opponent in the middle of a sanctioned fight- this is worth noting, although I don't think it's very significant.

Prior to his prime, Dempsey was down against a lot of guys, some of whom were not particularly good. If you think the Flynn fight was a real match, I'd say that's a heck of a lot worse than anything that Marciano ever dreamed of having happen to him on his worst day, although I think it was a fix. Dempsey was also staggered from a right hand by Carpentier in round two, was one punch from being knocked out by Brennan by his own account, and was supposed to have been seriously staggered in round one by Sharkey (although I've never seen this and doubt its accuracy).

1. You ignored Banks.
2. Walcott and Moore were also good punchers, better ones than Cooper in my opinion, and they caught Marciano with near-perfect shots and didn't hurt him nearly as badly as Cooper hurt Ali, but I don't see you riding Ali anywhere near so hard as you do Marciano.

1. You ignored Isaac.
2. Why would you think Snipes hit harder than Walcott and Moore? What name fighter did Snipes ever stop? You reject Rex Layne as a hard hitter based on an admittedly thin knockout resume, and his knockout resume is still much stronger than Snipes'. Ezzard Charles hurt, floored and stopped a heck of a lot more name fighters, elite contenders and champions than Snipes did, and you more or less take an intellectual dump on his punching prowess.
The only reason I can see here that you would think Snipes hit harder than Walcott and Charles is that he floored and hurt Holmes, and that's coming entirely from your implicit assumption that Holmes had a stronger chin than Marciano. It's circular reasoning, a logical fallacy. ME: "Holmes was floored by Snipes." YOU: "Oh, well Snipes hit harder than Walcott and Moore." ME: Why do you say that?" YOU: "Because he floored Holmes." Based on the entirety of the rest of his professional career, Snipes was not nearly as dangerous a puncher as a Walcott or Moore.

You wouldn't permit such an argument from me if a guy who otherwise never displayed any world-class power had floored Marciano. Just imagine what you'd be saying about him if a guy with Snipes' credentials as a puncher had put him down and nearly out like happened to Holmes!

It's Walcott and Moore, and again, why??? It's as though the default for you is that anyone over 200 pounds must hit harder than Walcott and Moore. Even when the other champions were knocked down or out by guys with unimpressive knockout percentages who never floored or stopped another elite heavyweight in their lives, you seem to assume that guy must've hit harder than Walcott and Moore, because he floored X champion, who you presuppose to have been highly durable and moreso than Marciano. Douglas did not have an impressive knockout record, and he never stopped or even knocked down an elite heavyweight aside from Tyson. The very best fighter Douglas ever stopped aside from Tyson was Mike Williams, who was a flash-in-the-pan gatekeeper, and even then he had to batter the guy into submission and put him down four times.

I think guys like Walcott and Moore were probably more likely to floor a guy like Marciano than the majority of harder punchers would be. If Marciano had defended against guys like Satterfield and Earl Walls, guys known as devastating punchers and non-stop offensive fighters, I would expect him to win swift, crushing knockouts. Those guys, being much less precise and much less crafty, would probably never land a really flush full-force power shot and would be mowed down by a guy like Marciano. It would take either a very skilled monstrous hitter like Joe Louis or an utterly beastly puncher with size, strength, a chin and a good style like Foreman to be seriously likely to put a Marciano away.

 

The film did show Dempsey stagger in round 1 vs Sharkey. Tomorrow I may post pics of the stagger.

 

Part I

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Louis said the last fight he felt like himself vs the Tami M fight. Sorry, Foreman power wasn't the same in his come back, though it was clearly better than Louis power in his comeback. Foreman was always heavy handed so in a sense he kept his best stuff. Louis' power depended on speed and timing....things that go with age.

And they were who?

Walcott's chin was average at best. If he wasn't defensive, it would look worse. Charles was down something like 30 times in his career, and the papers said he had a suspect chin at heavyweight. Ray was glass cannon, with a fluffy record, which is why he wasn't starched often.

As a light heavyweight sure. But I am talking about Charles as a heavyweight. At heavyweight, Charles was not a puncher at all.

Satterfiled, Dunlap, and Whitlock were ranked? This to me would signify a weak era. I think Layne coming from the same parts of the country Dempsey did was hyped as a puncher.

And Ali, Louis, Holmes, and Dempsey also faced and beat better punchers. They were also tested by better punchers. Marciano did not face the same class of punchers. This is the central point that requires some give and take for this conversation to continue. Chins are best tested when they are hit by punchers, and the above men all faced, got hit by, and defeated better punchers than Archie Moore.

This is true. Dempsey also proved he could get up from Fripo, who hit harder than anyone Marciano fought. The question is could Marciano weather the same blow? Maybe. It is unknown.

Agreed. Jeffries had 100+ exhibition matches, and this is the lone one that is talked about because he went down.[/FONT]

 

Part II

I think the Flynn match was a real match. I agree. My point was Marciano did not fight guys like Flynn until he was ready. Marciano was a well managed fighter. Dempsey was not managed until he meet Kearns.

No need to comment on Banks as Ali proved he could take big time bombs. Again, Marciano did not face hitters like Foreman, Norton, Frazier, and Shavers...

I think Cooper's hook that scored the kd on Ali was harder than Wlacott's hook that scored the kd on Marciano.

I did not comment on Isaac because like Ali, Holmes chin was tested by bigger punchers well outside of the class of Moore or Walcott. I think Snipes was bigger and stronger that Walcott, but lacked his skill. He was a banger, who if he caught you could hurt you. Charles KO% at heavyweight is low. It was built on light heavies and middles.

I don't want to talk about Snipes too much. I just feel he has more brute strength than either Charles or Walcott.

Fair enough, but being floored once or twice is not my point. My point is, Marciano was floored by grade B punchers. Holmes was floored by grade B punchers and grade a punchers, so his chin, along with most great champions is more tested than Marciano’s. Its simple logic.

Marciano had many early Ko's on his resume. His durability was only tested toward the end of his career, and Walcott and Moore showed he could be floored or in some cases hurt or tired. I disagree 100% that Walcott and Moore would be more likely to floor a guy like Marciano than many skilled punchers. I think Marciano had all time guts, great determination, and good durability, but I also think his durability wasn't tested by the better punchers in history, and he showed some chinks in durability vs lesser types not named Walcott or Moore, whereas other great champs who had the same chinks, proved they could make it on the top level.

I had to rush this post a bit. More later.

 

I want to keep this alive until after Christmas when I will have time for respond to a couple of points.
A. I fail to see the connection between who Holmes fought and any comparision between Marciano and Jeffries.
B. I don't follow the logic of your argument about Moore and Walcott, even if I accept your premises about who is or is not a "class A" puncher-which I do not. Your argument seems to be that though most other champions were knocked down by class C punchers and Marciano only by class B punchers, the other fighters proved they could occasionally last against class A punchers. You draw the conclusion that therefore Marciano would get knocked out by a class A puncher, but that doesn't follow at all. It is just as possible to assume that because no class C puncher of the type that knocked down the other champions ever knocked down Marciano, his chin would also prove stronger against class A punchers.

 

During Jeffries prime he kayoed everyone but Sharkey. Bringing up fights earlier in his career seems of little relevance if we are assessing Jeff at his best. By your logic Marciano's wins over Charles are undermined by all of Charles losses post-Marciano.

 

I dont believe firpo hit harder than anyone marciano fought. I would say Joe Louis and Jersey Joe walcott hit just as hard if not harder than firpo. who did firpo ever knock out besides a 45 year old jess willard and 40 year old bill brennan? it seems firpo made his entire reputation of power based on the jack dempsey fight. whos to say firpos right was harder than rex laynes right? i have film of a prime layne and have seen the destruction his right hand can cause. Nat Fleischer described layne as having a "devastating knockout right hand".


I would classify louis, walcott, moore as Grade A level punchers, and layne is certainly up their too.

 

I get the idea that Firpo had power in buckets. Posibly Foremanesque power but not the technique to go with it.

Walcott is a fighter whose beutifull technique alowed him to sting harder than he hit.

Personaly I think that virtualy all heavyweight champions have been knocked down by lesser punchers than Walcott and Moore including some renowned for their chin.

 

possibly, but firpo reminded me of a 20lb heavier more crude rex layne.



do you honestly think firpo hit harder than louis who was roughly the same size as firpo in 1951? louis lost a lot of his speed and reflexes, but he still had brute force and natural strength to his punch. thats a good question. because i watched on film louis punches cause horrific damage to the faces of agramonte, brion, savold, breshore, marciano, charles. though he lost much of his handspeed, coordination... when they did land flush, the other fight went down or got driven across the ring(agramonte, bivins,savold, marciano end of round 1)

 

This is Jimmy Bivins on the Joe Louis of August, 1951. "He might have slowed up a bit, but he could still punch. He could punch same as he always did. He never did lose that zip, that punch with that power."

quoted in Richard Bak--Joe Louis, The Great Black Hope--Da Capo Press, 1998.

 

marciano fought better guys than a 39 year old flynn like tiger ted lowry in his first 15 fights.

he wasnt well managed at the beginning. he had to prove himself until weill agreed to have charlie goldman train him. marciano had to fight 15 fights, against some undefeated prospects in order for weill to finally recognize him and take him on.

it it perhaps only a weak era because you dont have any idea who those fighters are because of your limited knowledge of the era?

layne was described on all acounts as having "luis firpo right hand power"